To think JK Rowling is a fabulous human being

[TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair]

I just came across her book, 'Very Good Lives' which is all about overcoming adversity. I think it's so important that successful women talk about the times they've failed and how success is about pushing past that. I'm reading it just at a time I need to hear that message. I can definitely recommend buying a copy if you are in need of a boost or have some pennies to spend on something nourishing.

I was also looking into her charity, Lumos, and I had no idea just how much she was trying to help disadvantaged children. I love that she's putting her money and position to good use.

The term 'national treasure' generally makes me want to poke my own eyeballs out with a rusty kitchen utensil but AIBU to say she is an utter treasure and we are lucky to have her. She makes the world a better place.

That's all!

I see no one's answered my question about whether they'd believe Donna Trump if she identified as the first woman president of the USA tomorrow.

Also this bloody nonsense about language inclusivity. Are you one of those people who bleats "ALL lives matter!" when advised that Black Lives Matter? What with wanting to be so inclusive and all?

WikkiTikkiWoo To be fair, that comment was not aimed at you at all. But that is interesting that you work around FGM. I do understand that much of the time it is women that carry out the act, but maybe you can tell us more about why that is so? Apart from tradition that is?

Also then, you will also know more about the FGM victim who has been sent copious abuse for daring to talk about it being FEMALE genital mutilation because males feel excluded when she talks about it.

By which I mean, what the fuck is it with this inclusivity fetish? Why is being inclusive at all times, everywhere, however inappropriate, a Good Thing?

Are you one of those people who bleats "ALL lives matter!" when advised that Black Lives Matter? What with wanting to be so inclusive and all?

Er....no, I never would because my point would still be the same - sometimes it's not all about me.
Why would I go me me me at Black Lives Matter, just like why would I go me me me on trans issues?

The reason women carry out FGM is the same as why they broke their daughters' and nieces' ankles in China until the revolution - so that men could stand above the abuse that's done to women and have it done by women so they can blame women and pretend it's nothing to do with them.

The fact that they refused to marry women who didn't have bound feet, or women who haven't had FGM and there is no option but marriage for a woman in such patriarchal societies, is nothing to do with them of course, it's all some laydee thing.

Do transmen really object to the use of 'women and girls' when talking about menstruation?

I have only ever seen objections from transwomen who believe that saying 'women menstruate' is trans-exclusionary, because transwomen don't menstruate?

I would genuinely like to see some evidence of why language needs to be more trans-inclusive for transmen, from the perspective of transmen.

I would also like to see similar use of 'people' in association with male functions, e.g. 'people who have prostates' being used instead of 'men'? It can just feel sometimes that there is a very one-sided push to change the language around 'woman' but not the word 'man'.

Why must us women fold our hand, to stop men beating eachother up?

Why?

It's their problem, the men. Not mine, not ours.

Male violence is the issue, speak to the men, don't tell women to be quiet and appease a group because we "wiimen have a duty to safeguard the world" we don't.

We have the right to feel safe, we have the right to women's only spaces, women's sports and specific women's rights die to our biological sex.

Why can't the transexual community fight for their own space of safety, a third space. I fully support this.

Also Wikki you might also be able to answer my question:

'Also, I'd be interested in knowing if any transwomen are currently activists for female infanticide? ...'

Because I keep seeing that transwomen stand for all women's rights yet, I never actually see much about them standing for anything but the rights that directly effect their freedoms.

Lemonade the most inclusive term for all would be female. It doesn't matter if you identify as a transman, non-binary or if you are a woman. If you menstruate, you are female.

Although knowing the TRA brigade even this would cause toys to be thrown out the pram because it's a crime now to acknowledge biological reality.

WikkiTikkiWoo

Your phrasing was "our feminine ideals", I was taking issue with your assertion that women have a shared and accepted concept of femininity which is how we recognise other women. I reject the notion of femininity as a marker of womanhood and your ideals are not shared by me.
You equated butch women to transwomen who don't have passing privilege. Transwomen are biologically male, butch women are female; your comment was offensive.

@WikkiTikkiWoo Have you actually looked into what's going on with the transgender movement at the moment? Or are you just starting to touch on what's been going on?

You currently seem to be in the 'be kind' phase that most of us went through. You know, transwomen need to use female spaces because it's dangerous, etc.
We've all been there and wondered what the problem is. But have you actually thought where it all end?
If ANY male can now say they are women, there is nowhere women and girls can be without men being present.
It's the thin end of a wedge, starting at toilets and ending up with men being able to identify into women's hospital wards, refuges and prisons.
I'm sure most have no nefarious intentions, but how can you tell the difference? And even if they have absolutely no bad intentions, surely women should be able to not have to be with men in those vulnerable situations?

We're not all witches that are mean to trans people but there are some terrible things for women that are being pushed through into law and it's horrifying.

Transwomen : "we don't want to use the same facilities as men, men are dangerous and violent."

Oh you poor loves, OK you tell us what facilities you want to use and we'll make it so. We can't have you in harms way.

Women : "we don't want men in our facilities, men are dangerous and violent."

Shut up you bigots, you deserve to be punched and burned. Anyone who wants can use your facilities, you don't own then you horrible selfish women.

"People who menstrate are called women."
That's trabsphobic, not all women menstrate. OK women over 50, is that ageist. No not in the slightest.

A lesbian is a woman attracted to other women. A heterosexual woman is a woman attracted to men. But if that man says he feels like a woman, they both become lesibans.

Hmmm, all a bit confusing isn't it.

BlueBlazerBlack Do transmen really object to the use of 'women and girls' when talking about menstruation?

There was one on JK's twitter feed who was upset said that hearing menstrual cycle = women was very harmful and thinks it dismisses them as human, it was the usual selfish, self-pitying stuff, all about poor me, me, me and no thought whatsoever for the women who are upset, feel dehumanised, dismissed and marginalised by being referred to as menstruators or people who menstruate. They did concede that biological sex was important but only for medical reasons which was big of them. Most notably they don't find not reducing men to their biology or biological functions upsetting or a dismissal of them as human, funny that.

Not both - female facilities and mixed sex facilities like family changing rooms.
Apologies, merrymouse, I had misunderstood you.

@RedDogsBeg, did they say if they were a transman or transwoman? I do have more sympathy for a transman not wanting to associate the word 'woman' with menstruation, than for a transwoman not wanting menstruation associated with the word woman (if that makes sense?).
Although, if this is not offensive to ask, do transmen still menstruate, because I thought some of the hormones would stop that?
It is genuinely sad if transmen find the language around menstruation triggering, but surely the fact that they have to have smear tests (for example), must be even more distressing? I think there needs to be more support for transpeople in being able to process their feelings and find ways not to find banal, everyday language distressing. Because the alternative is ever more vague, wholly definitions of woman, man, sex, etc...

I meant women who look like a man. I thought that would be quite obvious in the context of this discussion!!!
Can you link to any photos of women who look like men, Wikki, just as an example? I genuinely can't imagine a woman who could be mistaken for a man when encountered in a female toilet??

@BlueBlazerBlack

I was thinking the same thing today. If your gender disphoria is so sever that you cant bare to have one of your bodily functions associated with the word woman - I think you need real phyciatric help. Not people telling you that's completly normal and we'll erase the word woman for you. They will need to be able to accept their biology to some degree for medical care.

But then they lose all credibility when they get pregnant and have a baby.

I'm not a woman, I can't bare to have the word woman associated with me, it's so triggering. But I can do arguably the most womanly thing possible for a woman to do.

BlueBlazerBack it is transman - woman transitioning to man - who had to wait six months for menstrual cycle to stop after starting testosterone. I have little bit of sympathy BUT it runs out when fast when they themselves have zero sympathy or understanding for women as to how corrupting language to ease their hurt feelings will and does do so much damage to women and girls.

Exactly Alabama, I fear there is a generation of transmen and transwomen who find general, innocuous language triggering and distressing, so I have no idea how they will cope when they eventually have to deal with the biological implications of their sex...I have heard of at least one case of a transman allegedly dying of an ectopic pregnancy, because nobody thought to check they were pregnant. Sooner or later transpeople will have to accept that although there are some parts of their identity they can change, their chromosomes/internal organs aren't one of them. It would be kinder to be upfront from the start, rather than tying ourselves in linguistic knots so as not to offend...

Can you link to any photos of women who look like men, Wikki, just as an example?

There was a trans man I saw a picture of (think it was on here - here being MN, not this thread) where in accordance to some attitudes on here, is female so would be fine in the women's toilets.
There's absolutely no way he'd pass as a female even if biologically one, can't for the life of me remember his name though.
Will see if I can find

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Can you link to any photos of women who look like men, Wikki, just as an example?

There was a trans man I saw a picture of (think it was on here - here being MN, not this thread) where in accordance to some attitudes on here, is female so would be fine in the women's toilets.
There's absolutely no way he'd pass as a female even if biologically one, can't for the life of me remember his name though.
Will see if I can find

Presumably they'd be quite safe in the gents toilets?

But if sex isn't real, there wouldn't be transgender people?

What I find so depressing about this discussion is that it completely reinforces all the stupid gender stereotypes women and girls have been victims of for so long.

Why would I go me me me at Black Lives Matter, just like why would I go me me me on trans issues?

So why is it OK for people to go me me me when women talk about women's issue?

The difficult reality is that women's ability to participate equally in society will always depend on having specific rights e.g. access to birth control. This isn't a problem that will go away, so we will always need language to talk about our rights. There will never be point when women can simply be treated like men because our bodies are different and we have different needs.

There was a trans man I saw a picture of

The discussion was not about trans men who have taken hormones, but even if it were, a picture cannot convey how somebody would be perceived in real life.

Exactly @skarabrae

If sex isn’t real, what is the difference anyway between women and men.