To feel emotional at the slave trader statue

[Millicent10]

being pulled down earlier.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

This says so much and the symbolism of throwing it in the river is such a suitable ending. Reminds everyone what happened to so many slaves.

@BuntysBumperAnnual it's depressing isn't it!?

I despise communism, it's an disgusting ideology that killed many millions. Can I smash up every hammer and sickle monument I come across on my holidays to Eastern Europe?

Oh, good god, I nodded off and it all got a bit inane and non sensical!
I guess the intelligent points have all been made!

panavia

Well ibviously it was illegal for them.to vanadlise the statue for exactly the reasons you give. The reality is that it's clearly a lesser crime than destroying a statue of the queen or mother Theresa for example.

A woman who kills her husband will be treated differently if she was an abuse victim to if she just wanted the inheritance

So let's be clear the people.pulling down that statue are the abuse victims (and their supporters) in this analogy and the law should and will look sympathetically on them.

You may not take context into account but the law does.

@Frozenfan2019

So the white blokes stood on the statue at victims of slavery that happened hundreds of years ago? Right...

Even the black people there aren't victims of slavery. Just in the same way that no one living is a victim of the Ottoman Empire, for example.

@panavia no-one believes you go on holiday to eastern Europe.

Communism is a political.ideology. it is not equivalent to slavery.

panavia you’re starting to froth dear. I too find it hard to believe that you holiday in Eastern Europe. Still, each to their own eh?

Even the black people there aren't victims of slavery

I beg to differ. Descendants of something like that are very much victims, their lives are shaped by the experiences of their ancestors and the lives they led as a result. They still live in a world where they have less opportunity because of the colour of their skin, this is a direct result of slavery and the mindset that has come along with it.

If only the effects lasted just for the first generation directly affected.

So let's be clear the people.pulling down that statue are the abuse victims (and their supporters) in this analogy and the law should and will look sympathetically on them.

If a person is convicted of a crime, various circumstances are taken into account to make the sentence just.

I would suggest that vandalizing a statue for reasons of conscience would be looked on with more leniency than, say, if the criminal was drunk, but it's only one factor among many. The court would also take into account participating in public disorder and perhaps be more strict.

@Frozenfan2019

I'm half Eastern European. I go often.

And why does the fact that communism is a political ideology make a blind bit of difference?

Wasn't it you who said you despised Thatcher and would happily bring down a statue of her? Apologies if it wasn't.

The black lives matters movement is politicised so does the same stand true for them?

[quote panavia]@Frozenfan2019

So the white blokes stood on the statue at victims of slavery that happened hundreds of years ago? Right...

Even the black people there aren't victims of slavery. Just in the same way that no one living is a victim of the Ottoman Empire, for example.[/quote]
So your argument is that because people don’t have 250 year lifespans they have no right to protest? Ok then.

So let's be clear the people.pulling down that statue are the abuse victims (and their supporters) in this analogy and the law should and will look sympathetically on them

Good point

I don’t think child labour or indentured servitude are bright points in history to be celebrated either.

I don't either but should we rename coal lane, or mill lane, or industrial street because of it? Tear down the statues of industrialists.

My point was more that Black Boy Lane might simply have been a place where black people (not as slaves) lived and worked. Old Jewry in London was a Jewish neighbourhood going back many centuries but would we rename that?

I'm going off on tangents here i know because I'm interested in black British history but for what it's worth I think if the people of Bristol decide they want the statue of taking down or moving to a museum then fair enough but it shouldn't be torn down by what appears to be a middle class student mob. It should be taken down by workmen

Maybe the people of Bristol could have a vote on it?

@JimmyGrimble

No, that's not my point and I have never said that. I support anyone's right to protest within the bounds of the law.

I despise communism, it's an disgusting ideology that killed many millions. Can I smash up every hammer and sickle monument I come across on my holidays to Eastern Europe?

Well you can try and maybe succeed. Whether the law or people in wider society have any sympathy or give you any mitigation afterwards depends on why you smashed up the hammer and sickle symbol.

Simply hating it is not enough. However if you were part of a group directly repressed by communism (lets say your relatives were forcibly shipped to work camps in Siberia for e.g.) for whom the hammer and sickle represented something indelibly personally awful, you might get a pass and some sympathy.

Most people with a basic sense of morality would be inclined to give you a pass, unless the symbol is more important than you are.

It was me. I hate Thatcher. I also said I would never destroy her grave. The reason for that is respect for her family and (even in years to come) her descendants. You tried to compare pulling down the statue with destroying Marx's grave which is why I made my comment. I was making a.comparison between Thatcher and Marx because they are both political.figures.

Marx and Colston just aren't equivalent. Colston was just a rich man who made his money in despicable ways. There are all sorts of obvious reasons why Marx is more important historically, whether you agree with him or not.

If you destroyed Stalin’s statue, that would be understandable @panavia

@Frozenfan2019

No, you're right, Marx and Colston aren't comparable. Marx's ideology killed many more people and caused much more suffering.

Marx’s ideology? All righty. More froth. Weren’t you told upthread to go and read about him? Or was that someone else?

Panovia, it is Interesting that you’re presenting the removal of this statue as a left versus right wing issue, as opposed to one of basic human decency. Did you mean to equate indifference to human suffering, and indeed racism, with the right wing?

What would you say if this was an attack on a statue of Karl Marx? Would you actually be consistent and decry it, or remain silent?

I disagree that it’s a zero sum game that if you approve of this removal then you’re opening the doors to wanton lawlessness across the board. Context is everything. Furthermore, the removal of this statue is not erasing history, it’s righting a historical wrong which saw this man glorified with a statue when he never should have been. You can still teach the history, no one is stopping you doing that.

But Colston was directly responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. Not his ideology, him.

I could debate Marx with you but it's not the point. I am not a Marxist and I am certainly not a Stalinist.

You are up at 2am standing up.for a slave trader from 400 years ago. Step back from this and decide whether this man deserves your efforts.

You are up at 2am standing up.for a slave trader from 400 years ago. Step back from this and decide whether this man deserves your efforts.

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It is a strange hill to die on. I suppose she thinks she’s sticking it to the lefties.

Maybe the people of Bristol could have a vote on it?

I expect it will play out like this.

The council will dredge up the statue and put it in a museum.

The perpetrators will pay a token amount in recognition of their actions and get convictions or cautions.

Bristolians blether about whether to put the statue back, until they get bored and forget about it.

Everyone wins. The wokesters achieve removal of the statue, and the gammons get placated by some convictions.

I feel strongly that smashing up statues and throwing them in the river is wrong. It’s public vandalism and mob rule. If we want to get rid of a statue we should decide that democratically and remove it properly. As for those claiming that it was knocked down by “abuse victims” - we don’t know that. We don’t know who knocked it down or anything about them.

I’m really not keen on lawlessness and breaking quarantine and I don’t think there is a justification for it.

Not that I’m keen on slave trade statutes either but feel strongly that we need to keep the head and behave civilly.