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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why schools are saying they’re not allowed to do live lessons

752 replies

Plinkplonkplank · 07/06/2020 09:39

Because they’ve just started doing them at my ds’s state secondary. We had to fill in an online permission form. So it is possible after all.

OP posts:
LaurieMarlow · 07/06/2020 15:46

but that isn't nofunking's job! She's got enough on her plate without pondering what she might be doing in a different job role fgs.

But even if she worked in a private school it would be.

It may become part of her job if this situation continues and clear guidelines are set which include some level of live lessons.

I just think this 'I can't possibly because of my circumstances' is interesting. It's not 'thankfully I've not being asked to because of my circumstances'. It's just 'can't'. Which isn't an option for a lot of people out there, even your private school colleagues.

SmileEachDay · 07/06/2020 15:47

Bflatmajorsharp

Oh I don’t think the govt did it to address inequality. I think they knew it would highlight inequality and suspending the curriculum- pushing all responsibility onto schools - would prevent them being held to account.

I’m interested in what some of the “online is the onlywAy” advocates think the govt should have directed schools to do.

Leighwalk · 07/06/2020 15:51

Delatron did you not read the earlier links I posted giving you some of the government guidance.
I will say it again, the government have released nearly 1000 papers, guiding schools and also another whole load guiding parents. You keep saying the same thing, even though it isn't true!

There is guidance...just not effective guidance in real schools.

TacosTuesday · 07/06/2020 15:56

Zoom is safe-if you understand the safety controls. Zoom bombing as it's known is possible with public links, no password or waiting room. With a password the bomber can't access random meeting IDs . With a waiting room the meeting host has to approve all attendees. Zoom bombers typically will have a black screen, made up and etc. I've been on massive, public calls in the early days of lockdown when zoom functionality wasn't well known and seen zoom bombing. Not pleasant but completely avoidable with the right access controls e.g the host can remove rights such as the ability to screen share etc by participants. The ability to remove anyone by the host is the ultimate fail safe. I've seen Zoom bombing decrease as organisers have become familiar with the controls and functions of Zoom.

TacosTuesday · 07/06/2020 15:57

*made up name that should say, and face disguised

Delatron · 07/06/2020 15:59

@FrippEnos Thanks for confirming what I thought.

When you have to resort to insults you have to ask yourself why.

I haven’t criticised teachers per se. More schools in general for not being particularly proactive. Also the government but apparently they have set out some guidelines. Which I’ll go read.

My point still stands if some schools can manage it then I don’t know why more can’t. It’s just excuses. Ooh Zoom isn’t secure. So use Teams...

Delatron · 07/06/2020 16:00

And yes I use Zoom for work. I have a secure link, a password enabled and a waiting room to admit people. Why is this too much for some I don’t know..

SmileEachDay · 07/06/2020 16:00

My point still stands if some schools can manage it then I don’t know why more can’t. It’s just excuses

Have you read any of my responses?

samandpoppysmummy · 07/06/2020 16:03

My children are Y8 and Y9 at a state school and have had a full timetable of online lessons via Google Meets throughout lockdown. They have to sign in at 9, be logged in on time for all their lessons and have virtual 'form time with their form tutor once a week too. I've been so impressed with how the school have managed this and although my children miss the social side of school very much, I don't think they've missed out educationally at all. It's such a shame that all schools haven't done this.

BeltaneBride · 07/06/2020 16:04

Actually differentiation is easier in this environment than in the classroom as is not obvious that fine are getting different worksheets/scaffolding
H as be been using Zoom since the schools shut (indie secondary) is working very well, parameters locked down. 'Safeguarding' is just to stifle any debate.

SmileEachDay · 07/06/2020 16:06

samandpoppysmummy

Do you know how the school are making provision for families without adequate IT/space/Internet?

SmileEachDay · 07/06/2020 16:07

BeltaneBride

Oh hi!

You never did answer my question about how that would work in my context.

BeltaneBride · 07/06/2020 16:12

I do think someone should raise FOI request for LAs to provide details of exactly what provision schools are making so that parents can make in informed choice about where to apply to send their children. This situation could well arise in the future, and parents gave a right to have that information as part of their comparison of schools.

YardleyX · 07/06/2020 16:13

I can’t understand why the teachers that are working hard and have gone to huge efforts since lockdown, seem to stick up for those that have downed tools completely.

Surely, you’d be annoyed if you thought they were bringing your profession into disrepute?

Mistressiggi · 07/06/2020 16:13

@LaurieMarlow

I can't do live lessons because I have a baby and SEN older child and have to supervise them safely

What would you do if your job required you to do live meetings, consultations, presentations?

I’m not trying to be goady, it is a genuine question.

Ask to be furloughed. Resign. Teachers can't do the first one, and the second one would be very short sighted as the employer will need them again when this is over, it's not like schools will go out of business.
flamingochill · 07/06/2020 16:14

My secondary school kids are getting lessons on Teams now but I'd imagine that the primary school equivalent would be very hard to do. Parents would have to watch the lesson with their child (so they are able to log in, don't walk off, log out and play Roblox instead etc) plus knowing what people are like somebody will moan about why a specific time can't be done by them and expect the teacher to reschedule. I'd imagine those same people won't be impressed when the teacher's young child(ren) interrupt the lesson too.

It is a massive problem that children can't or won't submit work and I think those kids should be included in the keyworker provision so they are not left further behind. Blended learning is probably here to stay for a while.

FrippEnos · 07/06/2020 16:15

Delatron

When you have to resort to insults you have to ask yourself why.

That is an easy one. Posters making stupid statements like "can do" without knowing what they are talking about.

I have a secure link, a password enabled and a waiting room to admit people. Why is this too much for some I don’t know..

A case in point. Try reading what is posted it might help.
But just in case
Some pupils don't have access to a pc/laptop/chromebook/smart phone and in some cases the internet.

Leighwalk · 07/06/2020 16:15

I also posted this on another thread. ^
^
*This isn't 'finger in the air' decision making, this is serious.

All school decisions have been made, by senior leaders and governors using Risk Assessment documents.
These RA's are comprehensive. They have been put together using the (massive amount) of government guidance docs. The RA's have been written by Local Authorities/trusts, healthy and safety teams and had to be agreed by unions.
All RA's identify risk, evaluate it and seek solutions to lessen the risk. This has and continues to be a huge piece of work as all schools are different.
Schools have different numbers of children and staff; proportions of vulnerable ( pupils and staff);those who are a priority to be in school, those that can't be.
Every school has a different layout, different classroom sizes, outdoor space and access, different corridors and lunch arrangements.

Policies for behaviour are having to be rewritten to apply, as are safeguarding documents.
There are issues with liability and insurance. For instance in a VA school the governing body (volunteers!) are liable as the employer, as are academy trusts and LA's for maintained schools. There are legalities - what if a child or staff member dies or is left with a life limiting condition following COVID.

This can never be an equal or fair offer to all pupils.
What can be equal and fair and has to be, is that risks are assessed and addressed. All children and staff must have an equal right to be safe*

I'm fed up with parents who are experts thinking this is all so easy, just reopen, just put children in a village hall with a student, just deliver online lessons, individually personalised, just work harder, just have a 'can do attitude...just do all of that whilst reading 1000 guidance documents and act on them as an individual teacher....you are being so unfair.

The amount of work and professional capacity this is taking is astounding. I work for an LA, we are working on this seven days a week, full teams of senior, experienced education staff, rewriting safeguarding documentation, mental health programmes, consulting legal teams and health and safety advisers, supplying PPE, trying to provide transport (SD) when we have no money and no bus' to manage staggered starts, trying to provide laptops to the most vulnerable because the governments much lauded announcement has actually only provided laptops for one in four of the vulnerable children who are eligible ( and they haven't arrived yet), trying to provide schools with enough teachers to allow for 'bubbles', when the government is not prepared to pay supply costs ....trying so hard to put into practice the government's unworkable guidance.
Everyone is doing their best in an unprecedented crisis to keep your children safe.

Delatron · 07/06/2020 16:16

That sounds amazing @samandpoppysmummy and highlights my point. If some schools can manage this why can’t more?

Why are we just getting some crappy worksheets with no feedback or marking.

The discrepancy is huge and we are allowed to discuss this without teachers jumping in like it’s directed at them personally! It’s not about you. It’s about the children and how some are getting nothing, no education and some are getting a full timetable of live lessons. We can question and discuss how is this fair and how can this happen? All children should have access to the same standard of education at state level.

SmileEachDay · 07/06/2020 16:17

Leighwalk

Yup

YardleyX · 07/06/2020 16:18

Fully agree, Delatron

Beawillalwaysbetopdog · 07/06/2020 16:19

I've said some of this on other threads so sorry for repeating myself.

  1. I live in a rural area. The broadband is shocking. It's completely dropped out for over an hour twice this week. This hasn't been a problem because I'm recording videos (no images of me, just talking over slides) and I can upload them anytime but it would be a problem if I was livestreaming. Even when it's working properly it can support one video call. I have 3 kids + me. Yes I could go into school, but what about the kids? If they all had to attend live lessons we would have to make a choice which of the 3 could attend.

  2. I''m not convinced that live is better than video + quizzes + exam questions + feedback from exam questions. Some of my kids (mostly those invisible middle kids, but also some of the lower ability ones) are doing much better work than normal because they're not worried about drawing attention to themselves so will ask for help. They wouldn't do this in the live lesson.

  3. An average class has 2 carers in it. In my form alone I have one looking after 6 younger kids and one looking after 3. They are cooking, cleaning and trying to homeschool them. At the moment they can complete some work after the adults are home. If they had to attend live they would fall further behind.

  4. Private schools might be doing zoom/teams but they have much smaller classes. Just as in normal times smaller classes = more individualised attention

  5. Not all students have access to a device and/or internet access. Yes, most have a phone, but it's not always a smartphone and even if it is they might not have data. Some have to share with their siblings/parents and so have to do their work in the evening (or even in the middle of the night, some of my students must be nocturnal judging by the times of their emails)

  6. Some students are not allowed unsupervised access to the internet due to safeguarding/bullying issues.

  7. Sending videos of teachers is a safeguarding risk. They can download the image/video and manipulate without anyone knowing. Once it's in the public domain it would be very difficult to track down the perpetrator. That's if we're even made aware of it. Yes, this is possible in normal times but it's much harder to take a photo/video when we are always on the lookout for phones and they know they will be confiscated. As mentioned by a PP some teachers are hiding from abusive exes or relatives and it is a real danger to them if these images enter the public domain.

  8. Getting 30+ kids to pay attention at the same time is an art form when they're all in the same room as you. If they're not allowed cameras on (which they shouldn't for safeguarding ) then how do we know they aren't otherwise engaged whilst the live lesson is occurring.

  9. Behaviour - as teachers we are always challenging racist, homophobic, sexist etc comments. With voice changing apps and 30+ students present I'm not sure this could always be adequately enforced.

Private schools are a completely different environment. Levels of access and engagement (both parents an students) are completely different. I am sure some of their pupils have hardships but fewer of them will be caring for siblings/parents or dealing with substance misuse, unemployment, poverty, gang violence etc. Or have such poor English speaking skills that they cannot access lessons easily. Or have relatives or parents in prison that due to the current situation they are unable to see.

Private school pupils have always had a massive advantage over state. It's just been highlighted by the current situation. If you're angry about it now, you should have been angry before.

Mistressiggi · 07/06/2020 16:19

What's wrong with the worksheets Delatron? I'm wondering are they crappy per se or just by comparison to the Mecca of online live lessons?

Mistressiggi · 07/06/2020 16:24

Actually I've never seen any discussion about types of lessons that work well from a parent's point of view other than live video ones. I'd love to know - word documents or PowerPoints? YouTube links good or bad? Multiple choice quizzes or written answers? Feedback via a mark or a comment?
This stuff would actually be useful to know, instead of the endless whining about live lessons which basically boils down to, private school kids get this so so should mine. Private provision is always different, starting with the small class sizes and parents who can afford laptops and support education.

Jessicabrassica · 07/06/2020 16:26

It's tough if you don't have a device abd broad band though. We have a traveller child whose parents climb the hill each morning to get signal, down load the work bring it back, create work sheets and then at the end of the day climb the hill to send back photos of the child's work. Child ain't gonna sit at the top if the hill watching lessons on the phone!

Similarly a two parent- teacher family has one parent is in the shed delivering live lessons all day. The other parent is rota'd in school for some days. When not in school she's preparing and marking work and responding to online queries which means her primary aged children can't access her laptop until after the end of the working day to do their work. She is able to print off worksheets etc to keep her kids occupied during the day but it is unreasonable to start watching a day of lessons at 3.15.
I can't help thinking the people demanding live online lessons are probably those with sufficient time and resources to meet their children's needs. That is not the majority of people in the real world.