The English started the slave trade

[Annamaria14]

I just saw a black American woman post online,

"The English started the slave trade. They caused all our problems, they hurt generations of people. I will never set foot in that country".

What do you think? I felt a bit guilty, because the English did cause a lot of problems around the world. Have we learned from our past. How can we do better in the future

If you know your ancestors details you can search to see if they were slave owners. It's quite frightening how widespread and normal it was. People saw it as an investment, like an ISA, just what you did to save up for your or your children's future.

www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/

It's one person's opinion based on an inaccurate understanding of history. It's not worth losing sleep over. The English (or British to be more accurate) have plenty of "fresh blood" on our hands to be ashamed of without fretting over the sins of our ancestors and arguing over who did what to who 100s of years ago.

What is far more important is that we all come together to ride this wave of change and force positive improvements into our societies. Black people have every right to be angry based on the here and now. So let them be angry, even if occasionally some opinions or claimed facts you might dispute. Focus on doing something meaningful that might lead to them having no reason to be angry tomorrow. They have waited long enough. There is a real chance for change here, let's not waste it.

Proof in point, of all the things in the mainstream media and SM that the OP could have chosen to start a constructive thread about and she goes for petty shite. Get a grip and get on the bus or get out of the fucking way.

The right of the white person to feel comfortable does not trump might right to be safe.

*MY right

I think that not wanting to be like our ancestors is a good thing.

The vast majority of English, or British or European, peoples ancestors were not involved in the slave trade or owning slaves. Many were little more than slaves themselves and had no voting, property or employment rights at all.

A labourer under indenture, who ran away from their employer, could be captured, imprisoned, taken to court and returned to the employer and forced to continue many years of service to them, no matter how badly that employer treated them

do you feel pride for your ancestors winning world war two?

Hmm, that's an interesting question. I kind of do as I am from a military background - Grandad in the navy during the war, Dad served 27 years, I was in the forces too - only for a paltry six years though, but I have an understanding of what it means to be in the forces and to live in a conflict zone and the huge sacrifices forces people make around family etc. So not so much pride in the winning but in them being there to do it iyswim?

I think we have to accept and acknowledge the awfulness of the UKs participation in the slave trade, and by that I mean the enslavement of people trafficked from Africa (there are other areas of our history that involve slavery of other sorts) .We did it, many people made a fortune from it, our country collectively profited and prospered from it. That is beyond dispute . Saying other cultures and nations did it first/did it as well is not the point and does not excuse or rationalise our involvement as a country.

But by the same token it is not something that anyone alive now should be feeling guilt for,shame, yes, regret, yes, apology , yes, anger , yes, but guilt is not the right emotion.

What we should feel guilty for is how we are still allowing slavery in the form of human trafficking, enforced prostitution, enslaved domestic workers, gang masters etc etc to continue in the 21st century.

What we should feel guilty about is the level of racism in this country, institutionalised, endemic, casual, embedded racism that infiltrates every aspect of our culture and every level of our society.

It is all too easy to get sidetracked into arguments about looted artefacts and reparation. What we need to be doing is showing determination to tackle racism and modern slavery.

I acknowledge the pain that my ancestors went through at the hands of the British why can’t the British acknowledge that it was their ancestors in any other way than “that was such a long time ago...why do I have to answer for it?”

Because to be fair, life for 90% of the native British was pretty shit too. That's not to compare it to slavery. But the average farmhand wasn't living in 3,000 acres of ill-bought country estate. And still isn't.

Rather than lambasting the average person, people who want to try and deal with the legacy of the slave trade could do a lot worse than join together with todays workers, and take on the obscene wealth that the bosses of today still enjoy. And vice versa.

The Duke of Westminster, for example. Where do you think his money came from ? He certainly could do more than just say sorry.

Read the book called "White Gold"

It says online that:

"It is estimated that Britain transported 3.1 million Africans (of whom 2.7 million arrived) to the British colonies in the Caribbean, North and South America and to other countries."

I just feel sad at what all those people went through. They were displaced and taken from home. And I feel sad at all the racism the black people are experiencing in the USA, all a result of that slavery

@Chloemol

Lots of countries participated in the slave trade, , all through history.

It happened in the past, it’s what we do now that counts, you can’t rewrite history

As to the black American lady. I suggest she looks at what Americans did to the Indians before she talks about us

As to the black American lady. I suggest she looks at what Americans did to the Indians before she talks about us

and the people who populated the original 13 Colonies (that became part of the USA) were from country? Admittedly the Brits were not the only ones around the place at that time.

If you know your ancestors details you can search to see if they were slave owners. It's quite frightening how widespread and normal it was. People saw it as an investment, like an ISA, just what you did to save up for your or your children's future.

The ucl site you linked is a great website, it really is one if the best history resources out there. But only an extremely tiny proportion of British people will find a lave owning ancestor or even distant relative on there. Because the vast majority of people, around 90%, back then were working class

Excellent post @viques acknowledging and learning from our past is so important. And it is about tackling what is really important - the racism in the UK now.

I love that post

*slave, not lave

The level of whataboutery on this thread is unbelievable.

Why is it so hard for people to just admit their ancestors did something terrible? Why minimise it?

The slave trade quite obviously refers to the transatlantic slave trade, not the Romans or the Egyptians or what have you.

No, not everyone participated in the slave trade. Maybe 6 or 7 countries, with 3 or 4 responsible for the vast majority.

Britain alone was responsible for about 25% of it. That's 3 million people.

Yes, African nations continue to have problems today. Is it any wonder after several hundred years of colonisation, genocide, proxy wars and economic exploitation.

Some of you need to think about why you are so eager to minimise Britain's responsibility for the slave trade. I am not telling you to feel personally guilty, just asking you to acknowledge that it was a really terrible thing that Britain did.

Gosh, how will we manage without her patronage here?
And by "English," do you think she means just us, or actually the British?

Doesn't anyone concede that the British brought civilisation to many of these countries and started their journey to modern life?

Yes, colonising is such an act of kindness... this sadly reminds me of a comedy skit, I think by Eddie Izzard along the lines of ‘Hitler was such a silly man for trying to invade other countries where white people live...’ Not the done thing of course. If people with darker skin than yours live there it’s fine and generations to come will continue to applaud you for it.

If I recall, the reparations the UK government had to pay slave owners on abolition were only finally paid off in 2005. That gives a idea just how much this nation profited from slavery.

This is ill informed and shows a real lack of understanding. I'm not excusing the British but there is always a deafening silence about the role of Africans in enabling slavery. History is an ugly place and in this case, there were lots of guilty parties.

Slavery has always existed and still does, so if she wanted to do something more constructive than boycott the UK, that is a great place to start.

Seems like there’s an awful lot of Countries that American lady is going to have to avoid.

Those in most African countries were living in medieval conditions in the 19th century.

Which is after we ripped millions of people out of them. I'd be much more interested in how they lived in (say) the 12th century. What's that you say ? You have no idea because it was all wiped out by the Europeans from the Middle Ages onwards ? Maybe check your privilege.

I really detest this lazy view that Britain, or Europe somehow "civilised" the world, because they most certainly did not. Anyone who trots that out is simply parroting the propaganda of the day that was used to excuse slavery and the oppression of entire nations of peoples.

The modern equivalent is "democracy". "Bringing democracy to the world ..."

As for people thinking we destroyed their country, that depends on education levels. People across Africa are told that white people caused all their problems and continue to do so, when internal corruption causes todays problems.

African political problems stem largely from the legacy left by European colonisers.

For one thing, colonisation ended just a few decades ago. For another, the political systems implemented in these countries do not work with traditional African political institutions and thought, and thirdly, the countries' boundaries were created by colonialists, meaning that various groups jockey for power over the nation, which causes conflict.

To address the second point... In traditional African politics in many countries there were not two 'sides'. There were no winners and losers. Say there was a problem to be solved and there were a few different views. They would continue to debate and speak on the issue until there was consensus. If you were outnumbered you would concede. There are many other differences besides, including how people were elected, how power was shared etc. Forcing our European model of democracy on these countries has caused many problems. Africans have had highly advanced and nuanced political systems for thousands of years. European interference has decimated these.

WW2 doesn’t stop people visiting Germany.

Modern day Germans aren’t responsible for the past. The same way modern day brits aren’t.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Spanish shortly after the Reconquista of Spain from the Islamic Empire that stretched from Turkey, through the entire Middle East and across all of N. Africa and south as far as Kenya. The Islamic Empire ruled modern day Spain for 700years and had operated a busy slave trade in Africans from Africa and Europeans from Europe.
When Spain was finally totally reconquered by Isabella and Ferdinand in 1492, they inherited the slave routes and merchants that had been in place for thousands of years. Because they were Christian, they adhered to the Popes decree which outlawed slavery of European Christians, but they kept the slavery of Muslim moors and pagan Africans. They also had a problem- a large Army who had just reconquered Spain that they could not pay. But luckily, Columbus had discovered a New World. So they told a fable of cities of gold and dispatched their idle Army to the Americas to conquer and seize lands in lieu of pay. The Spanish did this, and within a decade, had plantations crying out for slave labour as the Native Americans had a habit of dying of disease or fleeing into mountains or impenetrable jungles. So instead of ships going from N. Africa to Spain with slaves, they started shipping them across the Atlantic to the new Spanish colonies and plantations around 1503.

The Portuguese then got in on the New World conquering and shipping slaves scheme.

The English joined in over a century later- they had initially started with indentured white servants but gradually shifted to African slaves.

@Pumperthepumper

I haven't stolen anything and put it in a museum. In Europe most people's ancestors were agricultural labourers. Why should their descendants be denied the chance to visit museums for the sake of political correctness?

So following the logic of ‘its in the past and nothing to do with me’ we should have left Alan Turing’s legacy untouched? Jimmy Saville should still be Sir Jimmy? The statues of confederate soldiers should be left standing?

You can still visit museums if we give the Elgin Marbles back - in fact it’ll probably be a much nicer visit because you won’t have to explain the British history of theft to your children.

Yes, the Elgin Marbles are the same as Jimmy Saville's knighthood.

Mumsnet logic at its finest!

In point of fact, Lord Elgin bought the Elgin Marbles and paid so much that it almost bankrupted him. Maybe facts aren't your thing. At the time the Parthenon was being subjected to cannon fire and if the British Museum artefacts hadn't been removed they would have been destroyed.

You might be attempting to make the point that history should be revisited. If so, please address the practical issues involved in dismantling the contents of the world's foremost museums. Many of the artefacts were donated with covenants attached, purchased with government grants or through public donations. They aren't private property. They were bought for public display and there is no legal way in which they could be removed. Shouting about repatriation on mumsnet sounds great. But it's pointless unless you can explain how it would be achieved.