AIBU - 'Karen' is about class, why are people so class-blind?

[Beancounter1]

AIBU to hate the way people confuse racism and sexism with class prejudice? To my mind, the use of the insult 'Karen', especially popular in the USA, doesn't just mean a middle-aged white woman who is arrogant, self-righteous, self absorbed, complaining, trouble-making, full-of-herself, etc. etc.
It means a middle or upper class woman with these characteristics. You won't see a working class 'Karen'. The stereotypical 'Karen' behaves as she does because she is on a power trip. Her social class advantage has gone to her head. That is why she complains in restaurants and is rude to shop assistants.
Why are people so blind to class prejudice? Why is the world so often seen only through the lens of race or sex? Is it because the powers-that-be (the 'elite') have a vested interest in deflecting and forestalling any class-based collective action or class consciousness? We are not encouraged to talk or think about class, but it is as significant as ever.

I think maybe Karen is different here and the US. Here it's definitely a working class name, maybe not in the US. Is it a WASP name in the US? Like the Karen in Will and Grace.

@phoebesphalange yes people do this ALL the time. And in the UK. I have witnessed it and heard it more than once. Not just within my family but I've seen it done to strangers too, on nights out.
It happens a lot in schools too.
Ask anyone you know who has afro carribean hair type and they will tell you that at some point somebody in the UK would have asked to have a feel of their hair.

I am puzzled by those who claim the insult 'Karen' is only about race, not class. If a white woman is rude to a black waitress, she can only do that because the waitress is in a working-class job. I would guess that 'Karen' doesn't have such opportunities to be rude or arrogant to middle-class or wealthy black women? Is she never rude to white waitresses and shop workers? I think by only seeing racism, not classism, you are missing something.
Maybe the blind spot is that there is a big overlap in the USA between black and working class, so the distinction is less obvious. I don't mean this to be offensive: from a sociological or economic viewpoint, it is another symptom of the historic injustice. Class prejudice on top of racism is a double-whammy. But to tackle it, we do need to address the economic or class issue.
And classism is not just an issue in the US - it is still a major problem in the UK. Why do people just not see it?

I think some are misunderstanding whether this is about women literally called Karen.

I agree with others that the Karen stereotype for me is the sort of upper WC / lower middle class person who feels they have some leverage over the working class and is somehow better. But I think that is because it is a staple of UK comedy (or at least the male version is - think Alan Partridge, Basil Fawlty, Captain Mainwaring, David Brent).

It isn’t sexist because it’s not oppressing women, it’s calling out women who think it’s okay to treat other people badly because of their own sense of self importance.

'It isn't sexist', but it's only calling out women. That's a complete contradiction in the very same sentence. It's not calling out men who think it's okay to treat other people badly because of their own sense of self-importance. Ergo, it's sexist.

Maybe if you find this meme offensive it’s because you are a Karen and instead of identifying your own problematic behaviours it’s easier to get defensive and claim discrimination.

Good example right there of how this kind of sexist slur is often used against those who have the temerity to question it, as it's a pretty useful mechanism for shutting that down. It works much like accusations of 'rudeness', 'bossiness' and 'selfishness', which just don't have the same impetus when directed toward men.

The post containing the highlighted comments is a beautiful example of this kind of sexist censure. And accusations of 'Karen' don't cause one jot of concern to me. Nor are they going to prevent certain unpalatable facts from being pointed out.

No matter how you try to dress it up in new memes and labels, it's just good old-fashioned misogyny.

Classism is an issue but I think people don’t see it with the Karen meme specifically

I dont think 'karen' is someone who simply complains or speaks up.

The memes were more the type of person that complains at everything. She's for a manager for the slightest thing or because they simply can't have their, unreasonable, way.

Like the mum off the Goldbergs. Not simply complaining where its warranted.

Excellent post at 10:12 MarieIVanArkleStinks

Morris nailed it imo.
However it started out, it's now morphed into a way of shutting women down. God forbid you be a middle aged woman with a legitimate complaint - people can just call you Karen and dismiss you!

I see "Karen" used multiple times a week on mn and different groups and have never ever seen it used in relation to racial issues. I've also never seen it be used of upper/middle class women. The best example of sexist classist bs that I've seen from "Karen" insults was on MN a few months ago. Someone posted about their fb friend posting on fb to say that as an NHS worker she appreciated people clapping. That was the woman's only crime. This poster commented on here about it to say "you just work in admin Karen, no one's fucking clapping for you". Perfect illustration of the most common way I've seen Karen used. This week alone Ive seen it used 3 times to slag off single mums who have been drawn into MLM scams out of desperation." No one wants to buy scentsy off you Karen, if you really wanted to give your kids a better life then maybe you should have finished college instead", that kind of thing. It's absolutely revolting.

@MorrisZapp

It's my name but I'm not personally offended by it. I'm offended on behalf of all middle aged women, because that's what Karen means. It means female and born in the 60s or 70s. Pamela, Debbie, Sarah, Louise, Amanda, Jennifer, step on up. Its all of us. We've reached an age where our people pleasing days are over. So instead of accepting crap service we say no, that's not what the menu says or whatever. But what could be even worse than a woman who is no longer deemed fuckable? A woman deemed unfuckable who talks too much. Insert the usual words - pushy, assertive, bossy. Ask when you last heard those words to describe a man.

It's a sexist piece of crap, whichever way you cut it. And of course you prove what a Karen you are if you object to it, because (lol! This is so funny!) that's what Karen's do! So you can't win.

I've been called worse than Karen. Cunt, for instance. But sexist, woman blaming language always gets a hard no from me.

Speak for your self!. I think your reading way to much in to it

If there's one thing that's very obvious from this thread, it's that the 'Karen' thing has a wider interpretation than many people think it does from their own experience. It's pointless to argue, for example, that it only applies to white women being racist, because there are a gazillion examples on the internet and irl where that's not what it's used for.

I'd say it's always sexist, pretty much always ageist, often a bit classist. Even if it's true that it's sometimes used to call out racism, it doesn't seem like a very good tool for doing so if it's also used generally to insult women .

Morris nailed it imo.
However it started out, it's now morphed into a way of shutting women down. God forbid you be a middle aged woman with a legitimate complaint - people can just call you Karen and dismiss you!

Yes she really did sum it up. I've been very uncomfortable with all the Karen comments since they started appearing on MN. Just because something doesn't start as misogyny, it doesn't mean that it can't become misogynistic in time. Women have always been shouted down and this is another way for that to happen.

Good grief so now Karen is a racist meme as well as a sexist, ageist and nameist one?

Because of a meme we are referencing the behaviour of a tiny number of ignorant racists - yes they are - who ask if hair can be dry cleaned?

Some people spend way too much time thinking about this kind of stuff.

It’s a meme.

Speak for your self!. I think your reading way to much in to it
Well loads of people have said they agree with what Morris said and i do too, so she's hardly just speaking for herself.

"a middle-aged white woman who is arrogant, self-righteous, self absorbed, complaining, trouble-making, full-of-herself, "

Unfortunately if anyone (some female journalist in the Guardian tried to recently) wanted to banish this name/meme/stereotype in the interests of feminism, lockdown has simply been the Golden Age of Karen. She's been everywhere, on pavements hissing at other walkers, on paths blocking cyclists, judging people left right and centre, using Covid-19 as an excuse to inflict petty tyranny on her neighbours, getting angrier and angrier. I saw one last week in the park, where she deliberately brought her own kids close to the little waterfall to shout at the 2 lads who were paddling near it, screaming hysterically that her children didn't need to witness this kind of stupity.

I'd love to say that it was just a misogynistic joke that has got out of hand and is now damaging innocent lives, but sadly Karens do exist'. Hordes of them exist, and lockdown has made them more angry and shrill than ever.

It's not nice to call people names at the end of the day, but we do if it's based on behaviour like "Covidiots". It's not nice either to pick on people for their personality traits, but when you are going out of your way all the time to boss or judge others and inflict your opinions on strangers (guilty!) you can actually make other lives miserable. Getting labelled as a Karen is usually earned.

Sorry to all the real Karen's out there...

@lydiadusbyn you’re my favourite Mumsnet poster.

Speaking as someone with a lot of American contacts, where the whole 'Karen' meme came from...

Over there, a 'Karen' is a white, middle-class woman, in the rough age-bracket of 40-60, who has never really stepped out of that white middle-class bubble. They've never been friends with anyone who isn't exactly like them. They assume that they are the most important person in the world, and that everyone else sees the world just like they do (and that is the only "right way"). They look down on anyone they consider to be of a lower social class than themselves.

@Nancydrawn spot on description of a Karen. I’d add, in the UK, a Karen owns everything on finance. Cruises in the Caribbean, all inclusive in Egypt or Morocco. Not the Costa Del Sol as that’s below them.
Speaks to others she sees as below her like crap because she’s insecure in her social standing.
This type of behaviour (shouting in shops etc) has needed calling out for a long time. We also need a male version.

But language matters Phoebesphalange and how we use it has consequences. This has become just one more way of sniping at women.

I hate the Karen meme.

And fwiw, the only covidiots I've seen near me are men. Not understanding social distancing in shops and driving at high speed like twats. Hth.

Would a Karen be Amy Cooper, the woman with the dog in Central Park , who claimed to be threatened by an African-American man? He very politely asked her to keep her dog on the lead but she responded by calling the police saying he threatened her life. She knew exactly that those words could have resulted in police brutality which is why she did it.

Amy Cooper needed to show him who was boss, subconsciously she objected to being told what to do by a black man. You only have to look at the recent murder of George Floyd by police to know that she knew what response her complaint would get.

Yes, Amy Cooper is a classic Karen.