AIBU - 'Karen' is about class, why are people so class-blind?

[Beancounter1]

AIBU to hate the way people confuse racism and sexism with class prejudice? To my mind, the use of the insult 'Karen', especially popular in the USA, doesn't just mean a middle-aged white woman who is arrogant, self-righteous, self absorbed, complaining, trouble-making, full-of-herself, etc. etc.
It means a middle or upper class woman with these characteristics. You won't see a working class 'Karen'. The stereotypical 'Karen' behaves as she does because she is on a power trip. Her social class advantage has gone to her head. That is why she complains in restaurants and is rude to shop assistants.
Why are people so blind to class prejudice? Why is the world so often seen only through the lens of race or sex? Is it because the powers-that-be (the 'elite') have a vested interest in deflecting and forestalling any class-based collective action or class consciousness? We are not encouraged to talk or think about class, but it is as significant as ever.

I think what this thread shows is that "Karen" is different things to different people depending on your own personal experiences.

"It's sexist and ageist first and foremost. There's not a male version ( don't start, there isn't and you know there isn't)"

There is. Gammon. It's only not a bigger issue because there isn't a Dadsnet for them to gather and whine about how unfair it all is. Instead they are out shouting at kids for kicking a ball within 100 yards of their car or harassing young mums trying to park at the supermarket.

I’ve always thought of those older lower class women who work in shops and are rude about my mixed race children when I see Karen memes. Someone who is so utterly utterly lacking in social status on every front that they try to find ways to make themselves feel more socially privileged by being arseholes. There is definitely a class element but not the kind you think.

MorrisZapp

I agree with everything you're saying.

mnhq

Please take a look at this thread and see how many women are offended by the use of a woman's name to degrade and humiliate women. I still haven't had a response from you about a post I've reported twice, so it appears you condone sexism, classism and ageism. A bit worrying for a site whose demographic audience probably has quite a few women named Karen.

It would seem that the Karen meme just means whatever stupid stereotype you want it to mean.

And no, Amy Cooper isn't a 'Karen' she a racist. Big difference quite.

Thanks Magic, I've reported a few posts recently too.

MorrisZapp

Probably the same ones. Did you get a response? I was disappointed not to, but unfortunately not surprised.

No response. I'm not overly bothered but I just wanted to 'log it', in the finest MN tradition. I've never understood how brazenly misogynist language is not deemed beyond the pale.

MorrisZapp

I've never understood how brazenly misogynist language is not deemed beyond the pale

Me neither.

@Pinkkgaga I have quoted you, I have not put words into your mouth. What is wrong with defending someone??? My god!!

@atilathehut - I have two relatives whose names are actually Karen, they HATE this fucking stupid 'Karen' shite as it's offensive to them personally, as when they introduce themselves, they get a look and a giggle in response - yes, it's also offensive to whomever is on the receiving end of being labelled a 'Karen' - but can you imagine what it would be like if your real name was being used and banded about to describe someone in a derrogative way? That was the whole point I made - just that, and Pink decided I was a 'Karen' for defending my relatives. Go figure!!

Why are neither of you understanding this!

"the use of a woman's name to degrade and humiliate women"

It is actually calling out a set of behaviours. My little sister is a bossyboots. My neighbour is a real nosey parker. My best friend is a know it all. Daughter is a cleverclogs. Sis in law a real Pollyanna, it gets on my nerves. Mum is Attila the Hen. Girl I work with is so gloomy, a right Cassandra. Woman on the Tube next to me kept trying to see what I wa slooking at on my phone, bloody Keyhole Kate. And the woman swinging a 2 meter stick round her head in the busy park is a proper Karen.

I don't think it's sexist, per se. I know a few women that fit the profile. They're normally the bitchy type who bitch about other women profusely, always trying to bring them down.

There are references to mens characters that could be classed as sexist. And men tend to share these memes as they appreciate the humour.

@venustiger - I do understand that - although I'm sure it's the same for Sharon's and Traceys, Kevin's and Wayne's, Tarquinis and Ophelias. The main issue about Karen though is not that it offends people called Karen's but that it's a nasty way of putting down women. Saying it's offensive to Karen's is missing the point

Your best friend is a know it all, fair enough. Mine is a bit too. But don't you notice or care that so many of these perjoratives from mild to hateful are part of what holds up the systems of patriarchy?

I've called people bossy boots before. I'm not saying don't use these words. But they're part of a bigger picture in which women are held to a much higher standard of behaviour than men are. They don't have male equivalents despite attempts to say they do, because what is loathed in women gets a free pass in men.

My 11 year old daughter was called 'Karen' after she complained about bullying. Hideous.

Wish everyone would switch from using 'Karen' to 'arsehole', to cover both sexes.

@atilathehut @MorrisZapp I agree with you both. It's such a massive stereotype and it is misogynistic basically. If a woman is opinionated or assertive, she gets called 'bossy' and is criticised for that characteristic. I'm not bossy but I can be opinionated about issues I care about and it just seems that women aren't supposed to speak up for themselves.

@PutYourBackIntoit That's awful, I'm sorry your DD went through that.

I have 2 DDs of 11 and 8 and I don't want them to be picked upon for speaking up for themselves. DD2 in particular is very assertive.

It's just another stick to beat women with. I don't object to women being called out on it if they've been out of order, but I don't think stereotypical language is in any way helpful.

LydiaDusbyn

It is actually calling out a set of behaviours

No, it's attaching a set of negative behaviours to a name. A name belonging to many women, most of whom bear no resemblance to that ridiculous meme, who are now getting bullied for it.

Call people out on awful behaviour, by all means. Call them racist, hypocritical, intolerant, if they are. Whatever. Just don't use a woman's name just because someone, somewhere decided that it fit a particular profile.

If it was your name, or your daughters, or your mother's, or your sisters name being thrown around as an insult, you would feel different about it, I'm sure.

PutYourBackIntoit

I'm so sorry that happened to your daughter, how awful.

This shows how damaging this kind of thing is for girls and women. How can we expect them to speak out when they get punished for it?

"£No, it's attaching a set of negative behaviours to a name. A name belonging to many women, most of whom bear no resemblance to that ridiculous meme, who are now getting bullied for it.

Call people out on awful behaviour, by all means. Call them racist, hypocritical, intolerant, if they are. Whatever. Just don't use a woman's name just because someone, somewhere decided that it fit a particular profile.

If it was your name, or your daughters, or your mother's, or your sisters name being thrown around as an insult, you would feel different about it, I'm sure."

I actually agree with you, and I do feel bad about that part, but I didn't start the meme, it's out there already. I only stumbled across it myself by accident after realising so many people were behaving just like this during lockdown - I hadn't noticed it before or that it had been given a generic name for years. It's not fair, I know...

@PutYourBackIntoit hoorah! finally someone who understands what I'm saying!
Sorry to hear about your DD.
If any one of us on here called the other a dickhead for instance, we'd soon be reported and our post removed - 'Karen' is a way out of getting into trouble, as it's someone's name, and imo it's more harmful.

In my experience karen is used in a "Shut up Karen' context. Nornally complete with an eyeroll.

Ive never really heard of gammon, its cergainly not as prolific as Karen and I never heard anyone go 'shut up gammon' to dismiss a mans opinion.

Im only 25, its not like Im out of the loop with memes and social media. Gammon is not the male equivelent of karen.

See I always took the name Karen to just be a name picked due to the age of the type of women they're depicting (40s to 50s so a popular name from the 60s and 70s)

When the memes first started I found them quite funny. I've worked in retail all my life and I can relate to the early ones, I've encountered these women (and their Male equivalent who I'd probably call Derek). Its hard to describe unless you're in a service/lower wage industry (retail, beauty, hospitality, transport ect) and you've experienced this type of customer. I don't think its race related- if you asked most people of any race or background who work in the above sectors if they knew what was meant by a Karen customer they'd say yes.

I do think the joke has gone stale now though. The early memes were a bit of fun but it now seems that it can be used to call any woman who has a slightly different opinion to the main a Karen which to me was never was what intended.

LydiaDusbyn

I actually agree with you, and I do feel bad about that part, but I didn't start the meme, it's out there already. I only stumbled across it myself by accident after realising so many people were behaving just like this during lockdown - I hadn't noticed it before or that it had been given a generic name for years. It's not fair, I know...

Thanks for posting this.

@TiptopJ You did make me laugh when you suggested the male equivalent to 'Karen' would be 'Derek'. That really fits.

But I agree with you that the joke has become stale. That's what happens with all jokes, they stop being funny after a while, and just become offensive.