This is fucking sexist

[catflapuk]

So, I work in a fucking men's domain. I'm so angry.

We are a team of 3 people - one for Americas, me for Europe, one for APAC. Both my colleagues are male.

Another team is working on a global client project, including Americas, Europe and APAC (in this order) and requires our input. My team's names will be listed as the team of contributing experts.

The fucking lead of this team, who is also male, lists my male colleagues first and me last.

AIBU to be so fucking annoyed?

[catflapuk]

Thanks for all your different views and contributions. Anyone who decided they would not want to work with me based on my post so be it. You don't have to and are free to move on should we ever end up in the same place.

I for one am good and successful at what I am doing. So successful that my current company poached me from my previous employer and I am now making 30% more than before. So it cannot be that I am no good at my job, but this is not the point.

Women can be just as sexist towards other women than men towards women. This is my experience.

Anyone who thinks my concern and upset are petty that's their choice of thinking. As a matter of fact I would not be where I am today had I not worked harder than my male counterparts in the industry and spoken up a few times. It is also not true that promotions and salary or any form of recognition (or the order in which names are mentioned) are truly based on merit. You live in Lalaland if you think that.

[peajotter]

How about a gentle email to HR asking if there is a policy, because you’re concerned about unconscious bias. If so, you could suggest that they send it round, so that you and others know for next time. It would help other women (or others) who find themselves in a similar position.

People saying it doesn’t matter: In my old area of academia names were listed by order of work input for the first 3, then alphabetical if I remember correctly. Citation rates are calculated on how many papers you have as “First author” and “top three”. These are key for getting a new job.

[ShinyFootball]

It would piss me off but I wouldn't email hr!

Op has already got it sorted anyway.

[StepAwayFromGoogle]

I think you are waaaay over thinking this, OP. If I'm writing an email to a number of people I just type them in in the order they pop into my head. That may on occassion mean the men in the team are first. I'd think someone was batshit if they accused me of sexism on that basis. Unless this individual absolutely always puts you at the end of an email list of men, I don't get why you are so worked up about being last. There's only three of you. Someone has to be last on the list.

[catflapuk]

@StepAwayFromGoogle

I think you are waaaay over thinking this, OP. If I'm writing an email to a number of people I just type them in in the order they pop into my head. That may on occassion mean the men in the team are first. I'd think someone was batshit if they accused me of sexism on that basis. Unless this individual absolutely always puts you at the end of an email list of men, I don't get why you are so worked up about being last. There's only three of you. Someone has to be last on the list.

But it was not an email. It is a project proposal. Spot the difference?

[VenusTiger]

@catflapuk in your next meeting, say "I see you've saved the best till last again" with a smile and shake it off.

[BlingLoving]

Also, it's funny how often male names pop into people's head first....

[BlingLoving]

The doctor conference thing was v interesting and I saw that study. A doctor friend (female) said shed never experienced that but that she was interested. not long after, she messaged me to say that as it turns out, it had happened to her that week and she was now questioning whether it had happened previously and she just didn't notice.

Trump was doing this with some of his experts a few weeks ago - Dr Faucci and Susan or whatever her name was.

[ShinyFootball]

I think if individual women don't want to care about the Sarah and Dr Smith stuff that's up to them.

It's when they insist that other women shouldn't get annoyed or do anything about it that I wonder where they are coming from.

[Thisisworsethananticpated]

OP I could pick at this and say ‘maybe it’s alphabetical ‘ yada

But working in similar domain , get it

I am so fed up of middle aged white men and their obsession with other Middle Aged white men

I’m raging too but for other things !

Solidarity 👍💪🏼

[SciFiScream]

Once your eyes are opened to it. You see it everywhere. I was watching something on TV and there was an interview people section. I counted 9 men to 1 woman. All white, all able bodied.

There is so much we just accept as normal. You need to be brave to say, "hang on - this isn't right". Well done OP for noticing and mentioning.

You might have made it easier for the person after you too.

[ProsperTheBear]

Alphabetical order is the only way.
Women first, it's patronising and sexist.
Woman last, it's sexist.
Woman in the middle, it's patronising and sexist!

Stick to alphabet.

[Ffsseriously]

This isn't about where the op comes on a email list.
**Another team is working on a global client project, including Americas, Europe and APAC (in this order) and requires our input. My team's names will be listed as the team of contributing experts.

The fucking lead of this team, who is also male, lists my male colleagues first and me last.

[Ffsseriously]

The quote was meant to be bold obviously.

[sillysmiles]

All the people saying "I couldn't get annoyed over this....but x big thing" not realise that these kind of minor but persistent things are what undermines women at work. There is no need to make a giant statement about it, but there is every reason to quietly correct it every time it happens.

Already in this thread people have insinuated that the OP must be "hard work" or "hard to get along with", - because she notices the minor constant acts of sexism that make up society.
If you are a woman who doesn't notice it, fine, but don't expect those who both notice and understand how the constant drip drip undermines your position and authority, to say nothing and "just be nice".

[sillysmiles]

@ProsperTheBear except that the OP's company already has a policy and by that policy she should have been second. She's not trying to rewrite the rules, just that the policies be implemented without bias - conscious or unconscious,

[ProsperTheBear]

but don't expect those who both notice and understand how the constant drip drip undermines your position and authority, to say nothing and "just be nice".

some of us might not agree that there was any sexism there at all and that playing the "weak woman" card is a lot more damaging.

[ravenmum]

[ShinyFootball]

Yes it's definitely weak women who stand up to everyday sexism

[BrexpatInSwitzerland]

Nah, I get that this is infuriating, OP. Female senior executive in the tech industry here.

For posters who don't "get" this - and I hope I'm getting you right, OP - I don't think it's the individual instance that grates. It's the long-term repetition of really minor issues in a constant trickle of subtle "fuck you, woman"s that eventually gets to you. Until people think you've lost the plot over something technically trivial (for them). Except for you it's part of a major pattern.

FWIW, I lost my shit in an executive commitee meeting one day over someone asking me to make them a cup, too, seeing as I was already standing at the machine.

But also, from a practical standpoint: pick your battles - and win the ones you choose to fight decisively. E.g., I don't call senders out for starting emails with "gentlemen" when I don't have regular dealings with it. I'd rip my boss to shreds for doing the same thing, though (especially because he actually gets more brownie points for having a woman on his executive team than I do for being her - same general category).

Decide if this is important enough for you to pick a fight over, OP. If it's not: drop it and don't feel bad. If it is: don't back down.

I personally don't know if I would. It really rather depends on who the audience is exactly - internally and at the client org - and how good the recognition is for your career. I wouldn't pick a fight over an HoD in my firm and Roger from Procurement. C-Suite? You bet I would!

[BlingLoving]

"Weak woman card" Argh.

it's not weak to notice these micro aggressions. All the time. Last one invited to a meeting. The one asked to take notes/make tea (or both). The one who gets ideas knocked back in a patronising tone. The one who is routinely not given the same perks for seniority as the men. I've lost count of the number of times I've been in clients' buildings only to notice that the senior female is sitting in the open plan area while the senior man has an office. Whenever I ask about this, inevitably the senior women acknowledges that there was limited space for offices so she agreed to give up the office, or was asked to. It's constant. And it's a relentless drip feed.

[Wakaranaihito]

You noticed it, addressed it. He will be more thoughtful in future therefore behaviour changed achievement unlocked. No point in spending any more energy on it.

[ginghamtablecloths]

I don't blame you for being upset. Your name being last gives the impression that you are a secretary (I was one for years and treated as though my brain was not as superior as their wonderful selves) and therefore an add-on. It's been put right so hopefully and won't happen again.

[BrexpatInSwitzerland]

I don't blame you for being upset. Your name being last gives the impression that you are a secretary (I was one for years and treated as though my brain was not as superior as their wonderful selves) and therefore an add-on.

Thank you for this! Genuinely!

I admit that, in all my years of producing client deliverables, project propisals and sales pitches, it had never even occurred to me to even name the secretary/PAs - first, last or otherwise. And I'm on the record as valuing my PA over my managers. It still hadn't even crossed my mind.

I'll change this with immediate effect!

[intheningnangnong]

Invisible Women read it and weep.