This is fucking sexist

[catflapuk]

So, I work in a fucking men's domain. I'm so angry.

We are a team of 3 people - one for Americas, me for Europe, one for APAC. Both my colleagues are male.

Another team is working on a global client project, including Americas, Europe and APAC (in this order) and requires our input. My team's names will be listed as the team of contributing experts.

The fucking lead of this team, who is also male, lists my male colleagues first and me last.

AIBU to be so fucking annoyed?

@littlemeitslyn

Stop the bad language, adds nothing and makes you look ignorant

It only makes her look ignorant to people who are themselves ignorant.

It's unconscious bias.

It's everyday sexism.

Bringing it up meant you were in a difficult position with a junior colleague (did I read/remember that correctly?)

An easy way to rectify, without making it about sexism, would be to suggest listing corresponding names in the same order as the regions they relate to. That's just good writing style.

Lists in any document should always be repeated in the same order to make reading and interpreting easier for the reader.

After the fact, suggest your company undertakes some unconscious bias training.

@ZaraW

Would anyone go to HR because their name is last on an email? If you experience discrimination in the work place but to complain over such a trivial issue is excessive.

This is so not the same thing.

Late to the party but sexist and ignorant. Lead contributors should be listed first. Or if not hierarchical, contributors should be listed alphabetically.

@littlemeitslyn

Stop the bad language, adds nothing and makes you look ignorant

Who died and made you head teacher ?

I wouldn't even have noticed. You're being ridiculous.

At least he included your name. The time to worry is when he doesn't.

the key contributors are listed first so the further down the list you are the less you contribute.
So you mean you contributed more than the men placed higher than you? If so, obviously that's sexist, and pretty easy for you to prove and rectify. But you would need to have explained that at the start for people to vote accordingly.

Are the Americas and APAC bigger markets by any chance? Where I work the European market is considered smaller than many individual countries and so the name of the advisor would always come last.

@ProsperTheBear

Absolutely no way to know it's sexist.

Don't play the "Sexist card" to get your way, you are weakening your position and mocking all of us.

This

@KaleJuicer

I think the people who think this is petty don't work in an industry where this is important. Authorship of articles in scientific journals - the order of the names is key.

I worked in a very large magic circle law firm in the City and group emails are sent with names listed in order of seniority. I used to have a copy of the firm letterhead in front of me so I could see who was a more senior partner (as the letterhead listed the partners in order of election). If not seniority then alphabetically.

You have been slighted and you're right to pick it up. It's not petty. It is a micro aggression. Just in case you think you're going mad. It should have been alphabetical.

Completely agree with this. Working in Finance meant I read your OP , winced in recognition and hit YANBU straight away.

And what a surprise the offender is junior to you - amazing how many men think their opinion is more important/valued than the female colleague with years more experience/qualifications purely because they have a penis.

My region has the most clients and makes the most money. Perhaps I should be listen first according to that logic?

You should be first, unless its alphabetical or unless a different business criteria is setting the order (eg the amount of expertise/effort provided by each group).

YANBU and its depressing hearing all the excuses and advice not to be "that woman". If more of us were "that woman" there would be far less problems.

I would say it is non-minor and it is absolutely a battle you should pick. Hopefully they will be more aware in future.

And what a surprise the offender is junior to you - amazing how many men think their opinion is more important/valued than the female colleague with years more experience/qualifications purely because they have a penis.

For many, the bias is so unconscious that they don’t even notice they do it and then get pretty darn offended when called out because “of course they aren’t sexist!!”

I’m so sad that so many women are defending that type of behavior and seeing that calling it out undermines the whole system. It makes me very sad for my female children that they are still fighting against not only the men but the women who feel it’s their job to prop up the men by being quiet.

Very definitely unconscious bias imo and definitely request it be changed.
Don't listen to the chorus of "don't make a fuss" on here. If the small things don't change the big things never will.

Wow when I put together a list of names I put mine last! Can’t believe this junior fucker with the smallest market puthis name second

I work in a Male orientated environment. Im known as a hard worker and people male and female come to me for advice. I absolutely couldn't care less where I come in a list or if someone accidentally missed me off the list. They are not going to think less capable male colleagues are doing a better job than me if they are mentioned. Its obvious who does want.
It all seems petty to me...

I work for lawyers and even when composing an email I put peoples email in order of seniority, it is important to them. I would never put a counsel after the associates, and even worse, associates before partners. If the person who is doing this isnt respecting seniority he should be pulled up on it. My male boss noticed a female counsel was after an associate in one of our documents and had it amended.

I do agree that many women do not challenge or worse still even so much as notice that the patriarchy is alive and well.

I think there is a lot of sexism which is prevalent in society. It’s not ok on any level. A lot of it is ignored by women as they are conditioned by their “gender” oppression not to make a fuss. I’m sick of it all. White male privilege I see as a cancer in our society. Along with racism these little sexism micro aggressions can really wear a person down.

Channel 4 is particularly sexist in their commentary. Gogglebox for example. Why is it always “Pete and his little sister Sophie” never Sophie and her big brother Pete. Likewise the welsh couple they refer to Dave and his wife Shirley. Never the other way round. What is that about?
I stopped watching Escape to the Chateau they keep referring to Major General engineer/Person of importance Mr Dick Strawbridge VIP and his wife Angel who wasn’t even graced with a surname so in the eyes of the (white male?) producers was clearly an add on.

I’m with you OP. Definitely challenge this.

Mind absolutely blown by the people on here saying this is a non issue. Assuming they are women, how are you so happy being complicit in this stuff?? OP well done for picking it up.

I think you'd be right to challenge this. Your contribution is being undermined.

I'm a solicitor and yesterday was sent an article/update from a barristers chambers. The covering email from the clerk explained that the article had been prepared by (say) Sarah Jones QC and Michael Smith QC (so far, so good) but concluded "if you have any questions for Sarah or Mr Smith please let us know". It really stood out that the male barrister was referred to with deference and the female barrister with familiarity. Annoying.

Names list should be by order of who did the most work in the document, neither alphabetical or by sex.

What's so insidious about this type of sexism is how hard it is to challenge it without looking petty or "hysterical". But yes, it's 100% wrong

This.

What a lot of posters are missing is the cumulative effect of this stuff. Yes, if this incident were the only form of sexism you had ever encountered at work, it would be trivial. But I am sure it isn't - if you work in a male-dominated environment, this sort of thing probably happens constantly.. The drip-drip effect of this type of incident adds up, and undermines women's positions as leaders, while reinforcing those of men.

Ignore PPs telling you this is not a big deal. It may not be a big deal in its own right, but it is a big deal as indicative of attitudes within your organisation. You will get unhelpful responses here because a disproportionate number of MNetters seem to work in female-dominated public sector jobs, and won't have experienced highly commercial, male-dominated workplace.

Good grief. I really struggle to understand grown adults getting fussy over whose name goes first and generally are over obsessed with getting credit/recognition for every little thing they do (obviously it’s not the same as constantly being over looked, I mean those psychopaths who point it out the one time you get them confused with someone else/forget to acknowledge their contribution even though no one else will ever know and you otherwise always do it but you’re tired and busy that day and you just forget). Even when it’s a case of partners vs associates/whatever it’s ridiculous to care. Being well liked and letting small mistakes slide/correcting them without being aggressive about it if necessary is important when you’re working with others. You often tend to see this kind of behaviour in industries/firms where people aren’t good at working together for that reason.

Glad that you managed to get it sorted though but unless you know it’s sexism I wouldn’t put yourself into a bad mood as it may well be unnecessary.