To be appalled at the amount of people who think school staff should be collateral damage.

[Witchcraftandhokum]

This is not a response to teacher basing thread, I know full well that all teachers aren't perfect and all schools have not responded to the Lockdown in the same way. But I'm amazed at some posters in here demanding that things return to normal immediately. I've seen someone promoting a petition demanding that schools reopen with no social distancing and no safety measures. People saying schools should have never closed and people saying that teachers should "just bloody well get on with it".

You're a bit late on the band wagon here.
Medical professionals, supermarket staff and delivery drivers, public transport staff...

Theyve been risking their lives for months. Schools have had plenty of time to learn from this and figure out how to move forward.

Now I'm not saying anything against education workers. My point here is that you haven't thought about anyone else in much more dangerous situations over the last 10 weeks.

Bflatmajorsharp What on earth are you talking about?! I never said either was ok or that teachers should be treated badly because others have been. I said every profession has something different to other professions and then I gave my situation to show what we face. We are all challenged we just face different challenges. I also wrote upthread about how brilliant my son's school has been. So please don't put words in my mouth or lie about what I've said to suit your own narrative.

@Epigram

I would think that teaching is a relatively low risk job, as they are interacting with the same group of pupils every day, compared to someone who is dealing with different members of the public or travelling to work on public transport? (Obviously some teachers travel on public transport so they would fall into that group too.)

Really? I teach secondary - and so in normal times roughly 150 kids come through my small classroom door every day.

I teach somewhere over 300 different pupils in total during a week. That's quite a lot, when you add in all the people they've mixed with.

WaterOffADucksBack I can't see that I've put words into your mouth or lied tbh.

Although I do think the issues that schools face are a lot more complex than 'we're not doing any of that and nor are we prepared to try' which you gave as an example of some schools.

I can't see that I've put words into your mouth or lied tbh You would say that though wouldn't you! I didn't say teachers should be treated badly because others have been but that's what you made out.

Although I do think the issues that schools face are a lot more complex than 'we're not doing any of that and nor are we prepared to try' which you gave as an example of some schools. I gave it as an example of what some schools have said as a comparison to what ours have said. I said nothing about how complex the issues were but keep trying if you like.

@AllTheUserNamesAreTaken

People keep saying teachers will be put at high risk. However, there is evidence (statistics for deaths by occupation) that they are NOT disproportionally at risk to the rest of the population. And before anyone says it, no that isn’t because schools have been closed to the masses - the statistics are up to 20 April Also, teachers keep pointing out some have been looking after keyworker children throughout. Where is there any evidence that these teachers have been falling ill disproportionally.

We are one of three schools in a federation. So around 200 children. We acted as the hub for all three schools to provide key worker places. Most of the time we had two children in. That increased on one memorable day to 4.

This week all three schools are open. Our "normal" numbers have increased to 45, with 50 on some days.

So presumably when you say "where are all the deaths from schools being open" then you are allowing for the fact that numbers were a TINY proportion of even now, so you would have to scale up deaths from that period to be able to compare.

Also, we cannot actually know how many of those working in schools did catch it during that time, even if very ill or even ventilated, as the figures don't show that. It's only deaths.

And there was actually a report on BBC news website the other day (will attempt to find link) albeit based on US showing those in schools ARE disproportionately affected.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-52637008

Not exactly as I remembered but puts primary school workers ranked 32nd out of 359. For comparison, seeing as people keep using supermarket workers as an example (in no way diminishing what they are doing, it's vital and we all appreciate their work), shop workers were ranked somewhere around 142.

So no, teachers NOT top of the danger list...but still pretty damn high!

*www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-52637008

Not exactly as I remembered but puts primary school workers ranked 32nd out of 359. For comparison, seeing as people keep using supermarket workers as an example (in no way diminishing what they are doing, it's vital and we all appreciate their work), shop workers were ranked somewhere around 142.

So no, teachers NOT top of the danger list...but still pretty damn high!*

That site is about exposure to diseases generally (not only covid) based on proximity etc.

It doesn’t take account of there being evidence children don’t appear to pass to adults.

The data I mentioned was deaths so no doesn’t include those hospitalised but we do know it’s mostly the elderly who have been severely affected. Working teachers don’t fall into that category
Most primary teachers are female (lower risk than males) and only 10% of primary teachers are 55+.

Only 1% of deaths are of people under 60.

Frankola

My point here is that you haven't thought about anyone else in much more dangerous situations over the last 10 weeks.

So the 400,000 face masks that were made by my dt colleagues and myself are worth fuck all in your eyes.

Good to know.

SpiritEssence
Actually the PPE has only just come in the last few weeks in supermarkets for staff. Most of lockdown we were without PPE provided

Interesting, the supermarkets and shops around here have had then since about the second or third week, and social distancing arrived almost immediately.

Teachers at my school have been great but, like every profession, there are always going to be a tiny minority who will be reluctant to work. Most teachers have managed their anxieties and been incredibly dedicated and imaginative in finding ways to make the return of three classes work well (alongside offering provision for key workers every day). From a management point of view, we have spent hours sourcing PPE and cleaning material's. The soap and aprons ordered in February have still not come back in stock. We usually have to use particular suppliers for financial regularity and best value but I long since gave up on that - whatever it takes to keep everyone safe.

@AllTheUserNamesAreTaken

*www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-52637008

Not exactly as I remembered but puts primary school workers ranked 32nd out of 359. For comparison, seeing as people keep using supermarket workers as an example (in no way diminishing what they are doing, it's vital and we all appreciate their work), shop workers were ranked somewhere around 142.

So no, teachers NOT top of the danger list...but still pretty damn high!*

That site is about exposure to diseases generally (not only covid) based on proximity etc.

It doesn’t take account of there being evidence children don’t appear to pass to adults.

The data I mentioned was deaths so no doesn’t include those hospitalised but we do know it’s mostly the elderly who have been severely affected. Working teachers don’t fall into that category
Most primary teachers are female (lower risk than males) and only 10% of primary teachers are 55+.

Only 1% of deaths are of people under 60.

It might be about general exposure not Covid specifically...but that doesn't mean it is completely irrelevant.

As far as children and transmission goes, reports are contradictory and that's the problem. Even SAGE has a low level of confidence about that.

Mostly the elderly...so the retired teachers that they want coming to volunteer in summer then. Not to mention the numerous members of staff who have returned to teaching.
One of the three schools in my federation has NO teachers who are not either shielding or clinically vulnerable.

www.google.com/amp/s/schoolsweek.co.uk/ons-figures-reveal-65-covid-related-deaths-in-education/amp/

Data from ONS up to Apr 20 shows rate similar to other professions. That excludes all the other staff who work in schools that people have tried to flag up. It also covers a good month or so where pupil numbers (and the numbers of staff too - more vectors for transmission that people seem to forget) were vastly reduced. So by the time you factor those in, the figure will be more than average.

Plus...1% is still a lot of people. And there's no knowing if it will affect you badly or not. "Mostly" doesn't cut it when staff are being sent in feeling a bit like cannon fodder. Every other working environment which has been closed but is now reopening has to Covid secure. But schools have been told "they can't social distance so don't bother...except keep the 2m social distancing...unless you can't...but you should do and if you can't then you don't need PPE." 15 children may be smaller than a class, but it is more than currently allowed in my local supermarket, and all in greater proximity for a greater length of time...proximity and time increase risk.

Teachers do NOT have a problem with going back into schools to work. We care about the children and want to help them learn, but we want to be able to get back to class teaching safely. Safely for the children and safely for us, which I think is reasonable. We ARE allowed to have concerns for our own safety! Had the gvt worked with the unions, people who work in schools could have suggested appropriate ways of being able to open safely and in a way that everyone is as comfortable as possible with. Instead we got things flung at us and told to make it work...in some cases it simply can't be done due to staffing, limitations in building size/facilities.

The thing that winds us up is that we are constantly being told we are work shy, don't care about the kids, expect more than other workers in terms of safety...we work so hard both in front of the children and behind the scenes to provide the best we can for them. We have sleepless nights over our at risk children (who incidentally have not returned and have indicated they have no plans to yet.) We phone them, we deliver lunches, we deliver paper learning packs to their doorsteps. We make sure that those children in school have as positive a time as possible under the circumstances, with no idea that things are worrying staff. We don't expect special treatment but we don't deserve to be accused of the kind of rubbish being thrown at us when we express concerns.

Teachers are certainly not at a higher risk then those people

Are you a scientist who has done the research? Because the science is saying people having to stay in a room with little or no ventilation with someone who at the infectious stage is very much at risk - like taxi drivers and bus drivers.

I also wonder about all those who are screaming poor children, mental health problems yadda, yadda, yadda are going to manage when their traumatised child realises that they could be the one responsible for the death of their teacher.

Now, like all teachers I know, I am keen to get back in a classroom. But there is nothing at all which is suggesting to me that it is even half way safe to do so for teachers and any adults who may come into contact with children.

Also, teachers keep pointing out some have been looking after keyworker children throughout. Where is there any evidence that these teachers have been falling ill disproportionally

4 primaries and one high school were closed due to COVID in my town the week before half term. I believe (anecdotal, I admit) that in one school, 7 staff were infected.

Medical professionals, supermarket staff and delivery drivers, public transport staff. Theyve been risking their lives for months. Schools have had plenty of time to learn from this and figure out how to move forward

Medical staff have PPE. Supermarket staff have some PPE, large and high spaces to work in, social,distancing and clients who are willing to social distance, said clients are also wearing some PPE. Delivery drivers are working alone, knocking and standing back. They are outside and not mixing with their clients at all. They can use PPE if they want to. Public transport staff around me no longer exist - no public transport running round here. But they too can use PPE although are stuck in small spaces with clients, although for shorter periods of time than teachers.

I am not sure what we could learn? The situations are not the same. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

I feel secoundary school children have been forgotten completely. My year 7 dd is learning nothing with online learning, and has given up.
Why can they not go back even half a day a week before September? I feel they are the forgotten ones in all of this.

So teachers in this thread if you were all given masks and children expected to wear masks would you be happy returning then ?? Or when numbers are down more ?
I'm just curious as if this is still around in sept what do we do keep them off still ?
My son is year 10 he's missed loads but will be expected to sit exams next year , I'm happy for him to have to wear a mask if that's what's needs for school to open , work online is ok but it's not the same if it was we would of all gone to online learning as would be cheaper for governments

(A) there is no sign of schools opening more widely here
(B) are they any more collateral than everyone else going back to work ?

As surely teachers back triggers everyone back ?

@strugglingwithdeciding we were ready to open to Y10 on Monday, then it got postponed for two weeks.

@W00t yes I'm aware ,I'm meaning whole schools going forward
Although we've been told will just be some face to face and not sure what yet
In my survey comment I put I was happy if just one to one face meetings for 30 mins or so just to check he was up to date and any issues ? But it's more sept onwards that concerns me

I am back teaching reception children now. Our school never closed as we were open the whole time for keyworker children. We are only to use PPE if we are administering first aid or if a child is poorly and needs to be isolated.

The children in our bubbles are expected to social distance with each other and staff. They are 4 and 5 year olds so it is very difficult and I have to constantly remind them to keep their distance from each other. Playtime consists of staff constantly telling them to keep apart. If a child gets upset, i can’t comfort them with a cuddle, all I can do is speak to them from a distance and try to calm them down. It is heartbreaking that this is what these young children are now having to get used to at school.

During lesson time, they have to sit at their desks. The only time they are allowed out of their seats is if they need the toilet or if it’s time to wash hands again. I think parents have no idea how different the school day is now.

It takes so much time to do everything that the amount of learning we can manage is minimal. I wonder what harm this new environment is doing.

I don’t think the return to school for the youngest primary children was for education reasons and if parents are able to keep their children home they should. We have almost full classes back now and I know many of the parents are only sending their offspring back because they need a break from them. Poor children! I really hope our school manages to escape any Covid cases.

So teachers in this thread if you were all given masks and children expected to wear masks would you be happy returning then ?? Or when numbers are down more

• numbers down and track and trace up and proven to be working
• reduced class sizes and students on part time timetables with online learning the rest of the time. This would help shielding and vulnerable staff remain at home as long as possible.
• personally I want to see some kind of guidance on dealing with secondary children who flout rules and think licking books and coughing on peers and teachers is hilarious. I would like to see such actions criminalised but minimally said children should be removed for the duration with no expectation that teachers go out of their way to see them educated. Essentially, one strike and you’re out.
• I would also like to see some kind of guidance on parents who dose their child up with calpol or deliberately send in a symptomatic child. And again, I think this needs to be criminalised.

My local co-op is at least 3-4 times the size of my classroom. They have a strict cap of 5 people in store at one time, with a very strict one out one in policy. The aisles are all one way, the tills have a barrier to enforce the 2m rule and there is Plexiglas separating customers from till operators and they all also wear either masks or full on face shields. It has been this way since week 1 of lock-down. The customers are generally adults and there is a notice up saying the shop can be closed at any time if deeper cleaning is required/ (this has happened 3 times that I know of) Despite all this at least half the staff have had Covid, some mildly, some with hospital stays.

Some of my classes have 30 pupils in them. They are teenagers and before lock down we had a number of them who thought it hilarious to cough in peoples faces and shout 'Corona'. They have parents who send them to school whether ill or not.
The local council sent someone in to measure some classrooms and it was deemed that 8 people were the maximum that could work and still adhere to social distancing rules. 8 including the teacher. Many rooms were only suitable for 6 people. We can't have pupil support in class as one more adult means one less child. Teachers are supposed to fully clean the room between classes (with no PPE)... They haven't figured out how it will work in corridors, or lunch halls or toilets (and who would clean those during the day, between uses).

Comparing a (properly managed) supermarket with adult customers to a school of children, constantly moving between classrooms, seeing different teachers and different groups of children depending what subjects they take, children who like to push boundaries is just foolish.

While there does seem to be some evidence that children tend to get a milder version, this only makes it more likely they will come into school not even realising they have Covid and pass it on to potentially hundreds of other people.

There is no good guidance on how to deal with a child who presents with symptoms other than 'send them home asap' with little consideration to who they have been in contact with prio to that.
There is zero guidance on how to deal with pupils who wont follow the rules.
There is zero useful suggestions as to how to deliver both online lessons and teach a full day (because it will take me 4 lessons for one class due to the 6-8 pupils per room rule)
And no one can make up their mind who is most 'important' to be back in school. Transition years? Juniors? Exam years? Vulnerable pupils? SEN pupils?
One of the biggest issues with schools reopening is that no one has really thought it through at all. We require 1/3 of our staff to teach one year group (out of 6) with the current rules. We will have approx. 25% staff who shouldn't be in school due to shielding or high risk.
Hell in Scotland they can't even sort out the summer holiday with some schools losing a week under current plans, yet as there is no way to repay that financially and no good way to give the time back at a later date.

Excellent post @dontlookbehind

reduced class sizes and students on part time timetables with online learning the rest of the time. This would help shielding and vulnerable staff remain at home as long as possible

I think this is a really important point. We do not know for how long these who require shielding will need to be in isolation. And also you need to add in these who need to isolate for a period.

There is zero useful suggestions as to how to deliver both online lessons and teach a full day

This therefore needs to be prioritised.