To be appalled at the amount of people who think school staff should be collateral damage.

[Witchcraftandhokum]

This is not a response to teacher basing thread, I know full well that all teachers aren't perfect and all schools have not responded to the Lockdown in the same way. But I'm amazed at some posters in here demanding that things return to normal immediately. I've seen someone promoting a petition demanding that schools reopen with no social distancing and no safety measures. People saying schools should have never closed and people saying that teachers should "just bloody well get on with it".

brakethree the guidance is certainly out there...I counted up that by last Friday schools and Local Authorities had been issued with 975 guidance papers to read and apply. Some of it is here...

www.gov.uk/government/collections/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-for-schools-and-other-educational-settings

Trouble is much of it doesn't actually work in real schools.

OK Silence but can you not see how this appears to parents? Why can't you kick back and say 'well we want/need to wear it so we'll have to make it work'. I'm afraid it comes across as putting barriers up at every turn rather than working in detail to adjust and make it work.

DH is a teacher (we're in Wales, not sure if that makes a difference).

He has volunteered to be one of the first back as they have some higher risk staff and it's unlikely enough children will be in to require everyone.
I'm worried about his risk purely because you cannot socially distance when teaching - kids don't do that. He teaches 6 year olds and they will naturally bunch together. Some have SEN so need physical contact, to tie shoelaces or hold pens. Children aren't great at covering their mouths if they cough / sneeze, they touch everything - and this is all before they're all scared because they haven't been to school or seen friends, only some are in class and teachers are trying to make them sit apart. Also, it's highly likely that the people who are sending their children to school are frontline workers at higher risk because they need the childcare.

Add PPE to that - there's no guarantee it'll be available, and if it is, I can only imagine how it will be quite worrying for children to see teachers wearing it.

It always annoys me when people say 'but what about nurses / shop workers etc.' It's not an either or situation - all people are doing is saying that dealing with children is a little more tricky and actually, teachers have little to no say in if / when they go back or what happens 🙄

If the guidance doesn't work who is putting forward why it won't work and how to fix it. There will be lots of elements that can/will work for all. The problem is that all we hear is why something can't be done, or why it's a problem.

Here brakethree PPE guidance

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-implementing-protective-measures-in-education-and-childcare-settings/coronavirus-covid-19-implementing-protective-measures-in-education-and-childcare-settings

There is still a shortage, there is a cost implication (schools have little enough money), children's MH faced with staff in masks and guidance as above.

MN is always full of so many people that know so much more about everything in schools, than those who actually work in education.

@Newmama29
I am a teacher and I won’t be ‘going back to work’ because I have been working throughout this - putting in more than my normal hours (I know some teachers haven’t been doing as much, or what they’ve done hasn’t been as visible) but I have been and have my own children to juggle too. In addition to this when I return to my place of work I would expect to be able to follow the guidance that the public have been given - e.g being able to distance (large secondary school). I’m fine with going back with safety measures in place that are reasonable- we want back to our pupils and we have an almighty job ahead of us when we do return. Many of the jobs you’ve mentioned have safety measures such as distancing and PPE- that’s all teachers are asking for.

If the guidance doesn't work who is putting forward why it won't work and how to fix it

The unions were doing a pretty good job of this.

Newmama29 the job roles which you list have all put appropriate safety measures in place.

NHS workers have had ppe (clearly not enough, but no-one has suggested that it's acceptable for them to work without it). Shop workers and take away restaurants have face masks, perspex screens, 'only 2 customers in at a time' type rules. Police officers have been patrolling in pairs, socially distancing and only going close to people when they need to.

This cannot be transferred onto teachers because their working environment is different. They have been advised (or in some cases instructed) not to wear masks. There isn't enough room in schools for the same number of children as usual to be 2m apart. Teaching involves spending considerable amount of time indoors with groups of people, which massively increases the risk of transmission. Teachers will not be provided with perspex screens, nor will they be able to move around the classroom to help children who need it.

In secondary, teachers come into prolonged (ie over 15mins) contact with multiple groups of children per day, not to mention all the traffic along the corridors, dining areas, toilets etc.

I find it perplexing how quick some people are to throw risk assessment out of the window where CV19 is concerned, and that when their lack of knowledge about how schools actually run is pointed out to them, they ignore it.

YANBU OP.

I can certainly see how it looks to parents. I am one. I don’t think it’s being used as a barrier as such in my school’s instance, in the sense that the school has done a very thorough risk assessment in preparation for our return and the decision makers feel that the PPE would BE the barrier to learning. I do WANT to wear it and I do NEED to wear it so yes, when the opportunity arises I shall say my piece. Though I doubt I’ll be listened to. I’m just there to teach, not implement policy or make decisions, I’m afraid.

I am neither a teacher nor a parent of school aged children anymore. My youngest is yr 13 so he is done !

However I completely agree that teachers and school staff should NOT be expected to ' return to normal'

All other arguments aside .. there is one undisputed truth...

No viral pandemic was EVER overcome because parents/children are stressed/bored /anxious. ...

No viral pandemic was EVER overcome because parents/children are stressed/bored /anxious.
^ this

I my a a teacher and quite frankly embarrassed by my profession. Thank goodness the supermarket workers or bin men didn’t make this amount of fuss at the start of lockdown. I think all children deserve some education between now and the summer holiday. I wish we were doing the same as Wales.

Then you, too, should take it up with the government, as it is they who have set the parameters for a limited return, and not your colleagues.

Leigh, I didn't say I know more about schools but there always seems to barriers. I assume you mean mental health when you write MH about PPE. Again this is just an opinion surely! If parents were told that teachers must wear PPE e.g. those big perspex face covers, in order to return and they told their children beforehand and children were prepared before coming into school it could be overcome. There will always be children who won't like it however there will always be a reason why not and those that will find it difficult, can't we just start looking at the majority who will benefit rather than stopping things because some will be disadvantaged?

Children get close to adults and forget social distancing.Teachers don’t have Perspex screens or ppe. It is different Every profession has things that are "different". I run a care home and we don't have screens. We have PPE but we also deal with bodily fluids, people displaying violent behaviours, people with dementia who will pull your mask off or are too frightened to receive care from someone wearing masks so we simply have to take them off in order to provide care.

@Goldenbear My arguement is it seems to be impossible to have a sensible conversation with some, because they seem to think schools are the only place that are dealing with these problems, and any time someone points this out its "teacher bashing!" There is never going to be zero risk. Its insulting to people who have been out working through all this, taking those risks to have to be overly sympathetic to one group of people who cant see that many other people are going through the same - while they have just been getting on with it.

Pp said teachers dont have a choice when they go back, they're just told - exactly the same as every other job then! Another Pp spouted off that people who dont know how schools are run shouldn't comment, while at the same time ranted off completely inaccurate safety information about the protection of all shop workers in all shops and pointing out the hospitals/care homes have PPE while ignoring the heavily reported shortages.

I'm sick of hearing how shop workers are better protected and less at risk, when that's not the case and they ARE just expected to get on with it. It's a sore spot for me because of my DM. Yes there may be SOME shops (and I stress SOME because a lot of people on here seem to think its all shops) that have perspex screens, but that only protects those on the tills, not those working throughout the store. And just because your local shop closes for restocking, doesnt mean they all do, or that its practical to do so! Social distancing measures might be in place but, the same as in schools, are next to impossible to enforce and many dont (either cant or dont want to) follow them.

The difference being, I'm well aware this doesnt only apply to shops. Or schools. Or care homes. Or hospitals. Or a million other jobs going on right now. Any teacher bashing I've seen has come from attitudes of the minority (and I do think it's a minority, all the teaching staff I've been in contact with have been beyond amazing) acting as if they are more special than everyone else dealing with the same issues, and it's clear its rubbing some people's backs up the wrong way. I say again, I have every empathy for the challenges you face - but they are not challenges you are facing alone. In fact, the strength of your unions has welded you a lot more power than many other professions. There will be a lot of collateral damage from covid 19 - the virus itself, and the measures taken to contain it. Not just teachers.

WaterOffADucksCrack yes, and the result is that the death rate for care workers age adjusted is at least double that of the general population.

I think care workers (and those they care for) have been treated appallingly throughout this.

But it isn't a race to the bottom. Care work can't be done by wfh, it just can't. That's not to say that care workers should be put at risk in the way they have been. They should have had better quality PPE, shouldn't have had patients with unclear Covid status discharged into their homes and there should have been funding for additional staff to reduce transmission pathways.

Home care should have been more thought about, with both those providing and those in receipt of care having fewer transmission pathways etc.

But just because risk to staff was neglected in the care sector doesn't mean that it's okay for those working in schools to be treated in the same way. Neither is okay, it absolutely isn't.

The unions really had very little say in plans for the limited return. That is, in fact, their beef. Limited returns is how countries which were locked down have re opened their schools. We are not unusual in that. There isn't any point in discussing with teachers what you would like to see in terms of return, for exactly the reason you state. Just like every other job, we are going back when we are told to.

To be honest, the thought has crossed my mind a lot when I've been reading threads on here whereby people have vehemently argued that the risk is low to children, that staff aren't being factored in. I do concur that we need to start slowly moving to back to some sort of normality, we need to do it safely and put people who are at risk front and centre rather than the people who aren't

I know how important schools are & all that a good education entails. I can’t help but think, so many parents use it as childcare. I know people want to return to work & obviously can’t take their children along, but there are a lot of parents who just want some peace and quiet & their children out of the house for a few hours. Why have children if that’s how you feel? Can’t you educate your children until September when hopefully the case if Covid 19 will be reduced?

Good post @Namechangeapril20

There are many people grappling with finding a safe way to carry out previous roles, including extremely important ones. Schooling is one of many such functions.

It is right to be concerned about risks. It is unfortunate when the (no doubt inadvertent) impression is left that teachers and other school workers feel that their risks are worse, or more intractable, than those faced by so many other important workers.

Why have children if that’s how you feel? Can’t you educate your children until September when hopefully the case if Covid 19 will be reduced? absolute ignorant comments! I didn’t know I had to be a qualified teacher when I reproduced. Some people may be able to blag teaching a 6 year old to count, how many people can teach a 14 year old computer programming, or German?!
Would I have had children if I knew I could never ever get a break- errr no actually I wouldn’t have.

Yes teachers need to go back to work, just like everyone else who can!
Actually government advice is to work from home if you can not go back to work if you can.
What an odd thing to say.

Actually the PPE has only just come in the last few weeks in supermarkets for staff. Most of lockdown we were without PPE provided

And that's why it's important that industries have unions to advocate for and protect their staff SpiritEssence.