To find it scary that people have willingly downloaded the track and trace app?

[SunnyThatsMyName]

This all reminds me of the start of some sci-fi/thriller movie.
Why are people so easily giving away their details to this useless government?

I don’t think it would hold any more information on you than google / Facebook / netmuns etc ...!

Meant to say ‘mumsnet’ ..!

@hfrdgftcsdg

No way would I download or isolate if not I’ll. It’s over guys. I know all you neurotic types can’t face it but it’s pretty much done.

Do you have to be so obnoxious?

Neurotic types?

I don't consider people not wanting to get a virus that could well kill then 'neurotic'

But you seem to think 60,000 'excess deaths' in a few months is ok.

At what point might you accept it's an actual danger for many vulnerable people?

For all those saying that the app can not track your location. You are wrong.
As I understand it from my friend who worked on the app, it will be able to track your location even with your location turned off on your phone. This is where it is seriously in breach of data privacy. They will also be able to keep this data and share it with other parties. This is different from how Facebook, google etc share data.

The idea that they aren't harvesting PII is disingenuous though. People who are symptomatic or have been in contact with someone symptomatic will be asked to register their details. Are you saying that you don't think that this is going to be connected to whatever data they're using to identify individual app users?

Identify individual app users, for what purpose? To tell them that they've been around a symptomatic person? The app does that automatically.

At the end of the day, I'm not defending anything to do with this, I'm just stating what I've seen from the app perspective having looked at the code and having downloaded and run it through some diagnostic tools, nothing more than that.

At this stage I don't get civil liberties objections to the App. That ship sailed when we accepted hard lockdown.

@MereDintofPandiculation

Thank you xx

Do people just want the vulnerable locked away forever, when there’s something that could give us our lives back?

I fully agree the country needs to start moving forwards, the lockdown isn’t sustainable but it doesn’t cost anything to have some sympathy and kindness to those of us who’s life’s are no in complete limbo for fuck knows how long.

This is hard enough without the shit that falls out of some people’s mouths when they aren’t facing this situation themselves.

I’ve no objections to using an app. I just don’t see why we can’t use the one that’s already working in Europe and doesn’t seem to have the same data protection implications. I haven’t seen any date as to when the uk app will be rolled out, there’s stories about it being unreliable on iPhones (don’t know if that’s true or not) and now people are doubting its trust worthiness. I want to get out of the current situation as much as anyone else, but this doesn’t seem to be a very efficient way to go about it.

No Dominic Cummings sister doesn't own the company doing Covid work. (The story arose because an Alice Cummings joined a company called Idox which doesn't do Covid work.)

However, an artificial intelligence company called Faculty is working with the data. That's the "Dominic Cummings handing data over to his friends" bit that people have mentioned.

Vote Leave AI firm wins seven government contracts in 18 months
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/vote-leave-ai-firm-wins-seven-government-contracts-in-18-months

Faculty is run by Marc Warner, whose brother Ben Warner, a data scientist, was reportedly recruited to Downing Street last year by Cummings after running the data modelling for the Conservative party’s general election campaign. Ben Warner is a former senior employee at Faculty and is also said to have worked on Vote Leave.

Ben Warner hit the headlines when the Guardian revealed he and Cummings have been attending meetings of Sage, which provides advice to ministers on Covid-19. One Sage attendee told the Guardian that Warner was a regular participant in meetings and “behaved as Cummings’ deputy”.

Now I would very much like this app to be trustworthy. I really, really want tracing to work – the testing and the human side as well as any tech contribution to it – so that we can come out of lockdown.

I want to be reading good quality reporting on this, without any inconvenient details swept under the carpet (as techies can sometimes do in their enthusiasm for the fun bits).

I would be prepared to accept analyses of the code and of what data is retained, by whom, in what form from independent analysts. I also want to know what derivatives of the data will be generated and by whom, because eg the social graphs generated by the data and the insights they offer may be of more value to AI companies than the original data.

( So What The Heck Is The 'Social Graph' Facebook Keeps Talking About? www.businessinsider.com/explainer-what-exactly-is-the-social-graph-2012-3?r=US&IR=T )

There's also the possibility that the basic personal data already handed over to Palantir to load into their database means several of the horses have already bolted, and that the app won't do a great deal more damage on top of that – so we might as well now have the benefits.

However, an artificial intelligence company called Faculty is working with the data

Correct, and lots of other data from lots of other government departments and private companies. Also lots and lots of IT companies have access to all our data, all of the time. DH does a lot of work with the NHS, and has access to NHS databases, but they are all anonamised and are under very strict data protection rules and regulations. I don't think people are aware of how much data is used, perhaps they wouldn't like it, but on the other hand, without it, we would be working blind on many initiatives to improve healthcare.

@PhilCornwall1
Identify individual app users, for what purpose? To tell them that they've been around a symptomatic person? The app does that automatically

This is sort of my point. It depends on how the process works.
Organisations will take the opportunity to collect extra data just because they can. Storing it is cheap. Convincing people to part with it can be difficult.

The app would be pointless if the data was entirely anonymous. How would you know who needed to be contacted if you weren't building a trail of personal information?

Person A gets symptoms, they have to then connect that person's details to the app-based contact data to know who else to contact. What happens to them?
Do they just self-isolate or do they also need to be tested?
What details do they need to hand over?

Maybe the government will take as little data as possible and only use it for the purpose it was handed over. GDPR exists because that was not happening.

@MGMidget

If yoy have an iphone you have no choice about it as it is installed when you update software.

Interesting.

Do you have a link to that?

I assumed that was the App that the Govt have shunned in favour of the one currently being trialled on the IOW.

@KnockDownNinjas

• The app would be pointless if the data was entirely anonymous. How would you know who needed to be contacted if you weren't building a trail of personal information?

Person A gets symptoms, they have to then connect that person's details to the app-based contact data to know who else to contact. What happens to them?
Do they just self-isolate or do they also need to be tested?
What details do they need to hand over?*

The way the notifications work is through firebase cloud messaging, so a persons phone contact details aren't required for them to be sent notifications through the app.

they are all anonamised and are under very strict data protection rules and regulations.

Baaaahhhhh the sort of NHS databases your DH may be working with are typically pseudonymised, not anonymised. Eg name and address might be stripped out, but patient's NHS number left in.

A few years ago, during the row about care.data, and NHS data being sold to insurance companies, it became clear that ministers and the NHS data miners had been blithely saying "anonymised" when they meant "pseudonymised".

Ben Goldacre's article here is worth reading.

Care.data is in chaos. It breaks my heart
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/28/care-data-is-in-chaos

This paper from the ICO explains a bit more (I haven't read it all):
Anonymisation: managing data protection risk code of practice
ico.org.uk/media/1061/anonymisation-code.pdf
This can be a particular vulnerability where pseudonymised data sets are concerned, because even though pseudonymised data does not identify an individual, in the hands of those who do not have access to the ‘key’, the possibility of linking several anonymised datasets to the same individual can be a precursor to identification.

Regarding strict data protection rules and regulations...
Unfortunately, as Dominic Cummings has demonstrated to the entire country recently, he simply does not give a damn about the rules. He doesn't even give a damn about being caught.

Giving our data to our doctors and to medical researchers is can be an incredibly good thing both to ourselves directly, and to others who benefit from the research.

It's something that we only do when we trust the doctors and researchers.

When you get something like the Health and Social Care Information Centre (NHS Information Centre as was) using the data for profit, selling pseudonymised data to the insurance industry as uncovered in 2014, or to US pharmaceutical companies currently, then that trust breaks down.

Then you get a global pandemic and suddenly it becomes clear why we that trust was essential, and shouldn't have been spunked away to make a few million quid – which looks like small change compared to the cost of the pandemic.

Article from Feb this year about how our pseudoymised NHS data is used.

(Note the fact that data is centralised is one of the things that makes UK health data more valuable than that of other, similar countries –because it's so much easier to buy and process in one go and is in standard formats. Extracting the same data from 1000s of separate, little, non-standardised databases would be excruciating.)

Revealed: how drugs giants can access your health records
Experts say information sold on by Department of Health and Social Care can be traced back to individual medical records
www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/08/fears-over-sale-anonymous-nhs-patient-data

In December, the Observer revealed that the government had raised £10m in 2018 by granting licences to commercial and academic organisations across the world that wanted access to so-called anonymised data. If patients do not want their data to be used for research they have to actively “opt out” of the system at their GP surgery.

Access to NHS data is increasingly sought by researchers and global drugs companies because it is one of the largest and most centralised public organisations of its kind in the world, with unique data resources.

Washington has already made clear it wants unrestricted access to Britain’s 55 million health records – estimated to have a total value of £10bn a year – as part of any post-Brexit trade agreement. Leaked details of meetings between US and UK trade officials late last year showed that the acquisition of as much UK medical data as possible is a top priority for the US drugs industry.

BTW, I'm not saying people shouldn't sign up to the app.

I would like the data management to be satisfactory (though I'm entirely not sure what that would look like) and for the app to be genuinely useful in the wild.

Even a perfectly functioning app is not a silver bullet. It could become a pointless gimmick let down by rubbish T&T or by people gaming it or simply not self-isolating.

@Onone

Dump question bit how do you get the app?

It's available in the App Store

However they have asked people not genuinely on the IOW NOT to download it yet as apparently it'll mess with their trial.

God alone knows they can cock it up well enough by themselves, we really don't need to make it worse!

@AdoreTheBeach

I’m one for data privacy. Big advocate.

In this instance, during this time, happy to download the app and once this danger has passed, I’ll delete it. Much like I turn on and off location services in my phone now when I’m checking in someplace in Facebook. However. The tracks and tracks is actually going to do something good with my data as opposed the Facebook, instagram etc selling it.

Can anyone confirm it CAN be deleted? I've read that you can 'delete' it, but that it actually stays on your phone.

But given I've also read that the Earth is flat I'd like to know what the actual truth is about being able to delete it or not

I know (or at least I think I know 🤣) that they're keeping the data for 29-30 years for 'future requirements' (another pandemic?! Or. Vaccinations? Research?

I keep flip flopping whether I'll download it or not on my actual phone. I have another phone that I could use, but if what someone posted earlier is correct (I don't think they are, I think they've confused the apps) & it downloads with the Apple update I might as well just allow it to do that on this phone

I'm not concerned that they know my personal information or whatever, just who it might get sold or accidentally given to.

So many different opinions on what they can/can't access/do I'm thoroughly confused!

The api which is downloaded with the Apple update isn’t an app but something you use with an app, but not the one we are using in the UK so won’t be any use here by the looks of it

PerkingFaintly Yes, you are right. DH tells me about lots of stuff that goes on, but I tend to zone out after a while, hence the misuse of nomenclature.

It is the data from the track n trace calls etc that could be kept, not the app...I thought?

My last word on this is, as far as I understand, it's actually NHSx that wrote the app, not some third party like Idox (who I have worked with extensively in the past on integration projects, and do know the company) or anything related to Cummings.

For me, I'd like the app to succeed, not because it's linked to the Government (I'm a big critic of any party), but because on the end of this, sat at computers churning out program code are people who actually care about what they are developing. I know what this feels like as it's what I do for a living and if you care, you do your best even though you are faceless to the person using the result of your hard work.

As I've said, I've no reason to believe it's not done by NHSx and for this I applaud them, just like the country has applauded the frontline NHS over the last ten weeks.

That's it on this thread, I'm done.

I'd like the app to succeed, not because it's linked to the Government (I'm a big critic of any party), but because on the end of this, sat at computers churning out program code are people who actually care about what they are developing. I know what this feels like as it's what I do for a living and if you care, you do your best

Yes, I believe you. That's precisely why we need outside people to look at the whole picture, including the human and economic contexts.

I understand only too well that developers get caught up in wanting to make their bit good. My observation is that, whatever the sector, developers' love for "their baby" can make them as short-sighted about the bigger picture as any indulgent parent. (I said developers – actually all of us who write, build or deliver anything have this tendency. This focus is how we do a good job on our bit. Perspective comes later.)