to think Irish PM Leo Varadkar should hold a press conference to explain why he flouted his own lockdown rules?

[Hypocraticoats]

One rule for politicians and another for the plebs?

Two questions: how are small to medium sized farmers regarded in terms of class? Are they rural middle class?

Secondly, are there lots of private schools in south Dublin? Is it regarded as m/c with north Dublin as w/c or is that too simple?

I was interviewed for a job in a south Dublin private school - The High?
It is difficult to directly compare with UK private schools but I wouldn’t have described it as posh as we would recognise in UK.

She was head girl of Kings Hospital School in her day - Leo didn’t make head boy - and is very much considered the star of the family in some circles

Exactly. Like Simon Coveney's brother Patrick (Greencore) being the Coveney family 'star' from some perspectives. The Varadkars and the Coveneys are pretty high-powered families.

Secondly, are there lots of private schools in south Dublin? Is it regarded as m/c with north Dublin as w/c or is that too simple?

Too simple. It used to be a general rule of thumb (obviously with some working class areas South of the Liffey and some middle class areas to the north, but very generally south was posher than north).

These days in practice it's more about East and West, with wealthier areas by the sea, and expansion to the West meaning those areas are much more working class and also sometimes underserved by amenities such as schools.

Private schools definitely aren't as automatically posh in the way it seems English schools are. I'm from South county Dublin and went to private secondary school, as is common there. Fees for that school are €3k these days I think (granted, it's one of the cheaper ones!), so nowhere near the level of English schools and thus much more attainable. My parents wouldn't have been able to send us to private school in England. It was a great school, but at the same time so was my cousin's state school outside Dublin. There was no difference in opportunity or aspiration for us.

Thanks. I taught at a private school there (outside Dublin) and I would say it was similar to state school in UK. I went in, pitching everything so high, really pushing hard, thinking this is the expectation. It was a faith school, too so I really kept everything at a certain level. Lovely pupils, great set up. Best school I ever taught in. Sadly, only extended maternity cover.

Just to add another factor into the mix...

I have a few friends who went to KH (one who was in the same year as Leo and went on to TCD to study medicine at the same time too) and none of them picked it because of it being private and posh. They are protestants and had gone to a CofI primary and wanted to continue in a CofI secondary and this was the best option available. They would say that if you want a non-catholic education your choices are much more limited.

Yes, I wondered if that was the case. Aren’t lots of CofI schools private as they are a small minority. The school I worked in had lots of farmer families and would be quite isolated. The school was a way for them to mix. Lovely atmosphere there and people.

Private schools here only cost between 3 and 7 grand a year, so in no way comparable to U.K. public schools. There are plenty of state secondaries that are every bit as well performing.

DS is down for High School 😉

I’m not a great one to ask about farmers, but it’s worth noting that they have their own separate socio economic classification here, so literally a class of their own. I’m real terms, there’s a lot of variation based on wealth.

So, there still lots of convents and brothers in the state would it be accurate to say that these are the schools that are academic and deliver for university entrance and the community schools or ‘techs’ are more vocational based?

They would say that if you want a non-catholic education your choices are much more limited.

That's true. My DS goes to a private primary but one of the main reasons for that is because I don't want him to have a religious education. The other reason is that his school is focussed on outdoor education and the curriculum is mainly play based which I want for him at a young age. As it stands now (he's 7 so this may change) he will be going to a state Educate Together secondary school. A number of my friends are teachers in ET secondary schools and I'm impressed with how they approach education in those schools.

There are certainly some community schools with great academic reputations, I’d say it’s more area dependent than school type.

The Gaelscoils are usually very strong on academics too.

How do you view Irish education compared to UK?

I think that there are a lot of unfair comparisons on both sides. I have taught to A’level/Leaving in both systems and I think the broader nature of LC is difficult. You still have to do maths/Irish/English at Lc whereas in UK you can drop a subject you find difficult. LC doesn’t look in the same depth as A’level but then we do only usually 3 to get into university.

Not really comparable in my view - they are very different and require a different level of skills.

I think the convents normally top the league tables, don’t they?

So, there still lots of convents and brothers in the state would it be accurate to say that these are the schools that are academic and deliver for university entrance and the community schools or ‘techs’ are more vocational based?

I don't think so, no. Tbh, some form of 3rd level education is pretty much the norm here. Our third level education is pretty much free. Anyone from a lower income family gets a grant to cover registration fees and books. (This is not repayable). Anyone who is 23 or older gets a lot of financial support if they want to return to third level education. And pretty much all university courses can be accessed through PLC courses, so even people who didn't do well at school can find a route into any career they choose.

I'd say that the main career path that is genuinely closed off is certain types of law. It's nearly impossible to become a barrister or a judge without the right connections.

@alittleprivacy. Thanks. A good, fair system.

I heard there was an increase in people applying to Irish universities from the UK. The fees alone will make a huge difference.

What is the view of the UK system in Ireland, then?

@serenada no that's not necessarily the case. Some community schools would be highly sought after. It really depends on the actual school. There aren't any vocational schools anymore. At least where I am there are none. The last "tech" here closed in the nineties.

The vast majority of schools have a religious (Catholic) ethos, and in many areas it's the only option so faith school isn't a choice in the same way it is in England. That is slowly changing but it will take a long long time for state education to become secular in any way.

I'm from ROI and now in NI. I prefer the broad Leaving Cert system compared to A Levels. It will never seem right to me that people can give up maths or English at such a young age. Also (based purely on MN so may be completely inaccurate), the educational system and teachers seem much more respected in Ireland which I think is important.

, the educational system and teachers seem much more respected in Ireland which I think is important.

I would agree with that. There seems little public respect in the UK (ordinary people, yes but business, etc seem to be historically critical of education as top left, too academic).

Personally I find the U.K. system very strange...it pigeon holes children from a very early age. If you don't pass you GCSE's you can't do your A levels. Here in Ireland if you fail you junior cert it has no bearing whatsoever on your leaving cert. As in you can still go ahead and sit them. Secondary education here starts at the age of 12/13 and continues onto the leaving cert all in the same school. I find it strange that in the U.K. they swap to a sixth form college or equivalent.

In terms of primary we have no SATS! We test the children only for our own data in the school and that is all...the parents don't even know they are being tested it's THAT informal!

What is the view of the UK system in Ireland, then?

Lets put it this way. I was living in London when my youngest brother graduated university. A friend of mine in London graduated a teaching degree as the same time. She was £27k in debt on her student loan. My brother had over €9k in savings as he'd spent very little of his grant.

And YES I totally agree that I find it strange like @MindyStClaire that at 15 you can finish your maths or English education in the U.K. I also get the impression that a 16 yr old in the U.K. who has completed their GSCEs then thinks they are "finished" school. It's very rare here in Ireland to find a 16 yr old who considers their education finished at Junior cert level! I'm not saying it doesn't happen...it's just not a done thing.

Teachers in Ireland are paid better, better respected, given a lot more autonomy, are much less burdened by admin and planning than in the U.K.

That’s an enormous advantage right there. Ireland is able to attract better grads and retain them.

One of the reasons we moved back to Ireland was primary education, which is much more relaxed and engaging here. Irish students perform very well on international measures, so the approach clearly works. The very idea of SATS is seen as ridiculous here.

Secondary, I like the broad approach, the lack of pigeonholing, the focus on non academic matter (transition year, when done well, is awesome). On the other hand, if you’re really into your subject, A levels give you that depth and scope.

I went to Trinity and my year was a mix of Irish, NI and GB students. Their secondary background didn’t matter much in the end tbh.

@alittleprivacy I agree I left university with no debt whatsoever as did all of my friends and then we went travelling. I wasn't entitled to any grants but I worked every weekend and my parents paid my accommodation (obvs very lucky) my weekend job was in a fancy restaurant and I earned €500 between pay and tips each weekend!! The bloody boom was great 🤣🤣🙈

The general consensus from my fellow primary teachers is the the U.K. primary system has its merits and they plough on and have a great scope at times. If you compare an Irish 6 yr old to a U.K. 6 yr old the U.K. 6 yr old would more than likely trump them...however, something happens somewhere in secondary school and Irish students seem to excel whereas U.K. students plateau.

I think the NI system is horrific. Having your future shaped by transfer tests at 10 years old is horrendous.

I think it’s important to note that there isn’t a single UK education system.

England and Wales broadly share a system but with some differences between them.

NI follows the same system in terms of GCSE/A-levels but primary is very different with no SATs - much more chilled out! NI also has the transfer procedure and accompanying grammar schools which makes a difference. You can not compare N.Irish grammars with English grammars because they are wildly different things. Also virtually no private schools in NI.

Scotland has a completely different system. Primary would be similar in many ways to NI (but the curriculum is very different) but secondary is a whole different ball game.

We have lived in Scotland, England & NI. We live in NI now because of the education. You couldn’t pay me to move back to Scotland, and while a lot of the English system is good, the negatives outweigh the positives for me so we wouldn’t consider it again.