Mum of baby with Down's syndrome suing government over abortion law

[SharonasCorona]

The mother of a baby with Down's syndrome is suing the government for allowing disabled children to be aborted after 24 weeks of pregnancy.

After 24 weeks a woman can have an abortion if she is at risk of grave physical and mental injury, or there is a severe foetal abnormality, including Down's syndrome.

Maire Lea-Wilson says she was encouraged in hospital to abort her son, who is now 11 months old. She felt the assumption was "that you would want to abort a child with Down's syndrome".

I’m in pro-choice, but I didn’t realise you could abort disabled children until birth. It’s shocking that a woman with a healthy baby with Down’s Syndrome was encouraged to have an abortion, right up until she carried the baby full term.

Can you please link OP to any articles/evidence that Maire had known throughout her pregnancy that her baby had down syndrome?

I can only find articles about the conversation when she was 34 weeks pregnant including an article that says that was the first time down syndrome was confirmed by scan.

If that's the case, it's very different to what you're suggesting, that she knew throughout, had made her mind up and was essentially being pestered.

I can very easily see HCPs saying at 34 weeks when it's the first time DS has been confirmed "you still have a choice if you don't want to go through with this pregnancy".

Someone knowing for months and constantly being asked at every appt if they've changed their mind despite their decision being noted before?

Not so much. Prepared to be wrong though.

The most important issue is the choice , women who end pregnancies for abnormality suffer enough with guilt, it is appropriate for anyone to add to that .

But are we in danger of making women who decide not to terminate their pregnancies when their child has Down’s Syndrome feel guilty?

@Comingoutontop123

Can you please link OP to any articles/evidence that Maire had known throughout her pregnancy that her baby had down syndrome?

This what was said on the Sky News report today. I’ll try and look for a link.

Even the article you linked says she was 34 weeks pregnant and 'the first thing they said ...'

I don't think this is someone that knew from early on in pregnancy and was put under pressure to terminate.

It sounds like someone who only found out a 34 weeks, was in a distressed state due to that and was told she had the option to terminate and felt that the assumption was that she would want to.

@Comingoutontop123

I can’t find a link so I’ll try and record the next repeat of the Sky News report in which they said Maire was aware. Which makes sense as the test is done between 10-13 weeks, not 34 weeks.

The first thing that they wanted to talk about (in hospital) was whether we wanted to terminate the pregnancy, and I was 34 weeks pregnant at the time, so it was quite a difficult question to get asked.

Sorry for the second para that was a cut and paste.

It's not really the same thing though... You and your HCP had a common premise and the options were on the basis of this. You might have felt quite differently if you were discussing an ELCS and he reminded you that he could perform an abortion instead.

So what, we don't allow discussion of any options whatever? Or is it okay to mention it once? Twice, where is the line?

There are two different issues here. 1. The dr mentioning choices in a way she obviously found hard to deal with. 2. Attempting to change abortion laws for everyone.

She's criticising the doctor for pushing their own agenda on her...and then trying to do the same for everyone else. Don't you see anything wrong in that?

I don’t support the lawsuit but I can understand if she had a bad experience and wants to highlight it. I’m not sure a campaign would get traction without a lawsuit

So even though you disagree with the lawsuit and accept that it would be a bad thing for women if it were to succeed, you think it’s ok that this woman has raised it because it might draw some attention to her singular personal experience, even though she could have chosen to complain to PALS, run a campaign, or lobby the government for legislative change instead?

You’re essentially saying you support this woman’s efforts to harm other women because it might get her what she wants. I don’t think that’s acceptable, personally.

“The first thing that they wanted to talk about (in hospital) was whether we wanted to terminate the pregnancy, and I was 34 weeks pregnant at the time, so it was quite a difficult question to get asked.”

That’s not being put under pressure at all that’s an expected conversation between healthcare provider and patient

It’s a shame she feels that way but she’s neither suing the HC for suggesting this, nor highlighting DS, she is trying to illicit a change in law based on her opinions that takes away choice from other mothers. She’s being very unreasonable and if you were truly pro-choice OP you wouldn’t even be posting this instead of trying to convince everything the NHS is frequently coercing parents to abort which is just utter nonsense.

Your article said "the first thing that they wanted to talk about (in hospital) was whether we wanted to terminate the pregnancy, and I was 34 weeks pregnant at the time, so it was quite a difficult question to get asked". That suggests it was the first time it was identified and suggested does it not?

Other articles did say it was a scan at 34 weeks that confirmed DS.

At some point, you decided the mother had known for months (based on nothing I can see) and must have been pressured repeatedly despite not wanting to terminate, you posted that and this was repeated by other posters.

It doesn't seem like that was the case at all.

Women have the right to make informed decisions. To do this they need a wide range of information before making a decision.

Other articles did say it was a scan at 34 weeks that confirmed DS.

I don’t think this is correct? Can you link?

At some point, you decided the mother had known for months (based on nothing I can see) and must have been pressured repeatedly despite not wanting to terminate, you posted that and this was repeated by other posters.

At some point? my OP says this, based on a Sky News repot, which I said I will try and report.

Look at it logically, why would Maire be upset at being asked if she wanted a termination at 34 weeks if that was the first time she was made aware baby had Down’s Syndrome? Your logic is flawed.

I fully support a woman being reminded that she can abort at any point during her pregnancy if that is the law.

Perhaps her medical circumstances had changed. Or perhaps it was a different member of staff who didn't realise it had already been discussed with her.

The point is she had the option provided to her, and she was allowed to decline.

I can't believe people are critical about her being given a choice, when many women in other countries aren't allowed to have this as an option. Unbelievable. And suing over it is ridiculous.

My daughter was born with congenital deformities and I was offered the choice at every appointment I had to terminate. I refused. End of. I certainly wasn't offended by it.

“Look at it logically, why would Maire be upset at being asked if she wanted a termination at 34 weeks if that was the first time she was made aware baby had Down’s Syndrome? Your logic is flawed.”

Because she’s an anti-choice zealot trying to use emotion to get others to support her opinions?

Your logic is flawed.

I don’t think you’re in any position to criticise anyone’s logic when you’re claiming to disagree with this law suit, but be ok with the fact that it was raised because it might draw attention to an unrelated issue experienced by one of the participants.

Just checked my OP, I thought I had said that Maire knew baby had Down’s Syndrome but it doesn’t. When I posted the OP it was with the knowledge that she knew throughout. I’ll try and get proof.

Then her response should be a complaint against the individual members of staff that she encountered, not a court case to remove the choices of every pregnant woman

Exactly this. Also no one knows exactly what was said to her and in what manner, how she interpreted it might not be how it was said. Even if it was, as the poster I have quoted has said, take action against the individual or the trust, not all women.

@zscaler this thread is primarily about the pressure on women to abort in some circumstances. Your insistence on bringing up the lawsuit is whatabouttery given I’ve said I don’t support it.

Okay so she is quoted as saying:

The first thing that they wanted to talk about (in hospital) was whether we wanted to terminate the pregnancy, and I was 34 weeks pregnant at the time, so it was quite a difficult question to get asked.

I don't know why she was seeing someone in hospital for the first time at 34 weeks, do they do clinics or appointments to discuss? It doesn't seem as though a midwife at every appointment has been going on about it or applying pressure.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8351603/Woman-Downs-Syndrome-launches-legal-bid-end-abortion-discrimination.html

This article says DS was confirmed at a scan at 34 weeks. Not everyone has invasive testing early in pregnancy, especially not at 30 years old and ultrasounds can be inaccurate for DS (and other conditions) and it's unusual to have a scan at 34 weeks without concerns.

I can easily say your logic is flawed OP. Your article refers to the Mother saying "The first thing that they wanted to talk about (in hospital) was whether we wanted to terminate the pregnancy, and I was 34 weeks pregnant at the time, so it was quite a difficult question to get asked".

Why would that be "the first thing the hospital wanted to talk about" at 34 weeks? If she'd known since 12/13 weeks?

I can very easily see why a heavily pregnant woman may be upset that termination is suggested as she's only a few weeks from full term and very bonded to the baby in most cases.

I struggle to see why that would be even mentioned if she'd known for months and made it clear that wasn't an option for her. It would be very clear in her notes.

I doubt they would have "encouraged" her to abort the baby. Gave the option, yes, encouraged, no.

As I said, I posted following a Sky News report. I’ll report back, but it say that she knew throughout the pregnancy. If they don’t mention it, then happy to hold my hands up.

However original point stands, there should be no pressure to abort.

this thread is primarily about the pressure on women to abort in some circumstances. Your insistence on bringing up the lawsuit is whatabouttery given I’ve said I don’t support it.

Are you serious? Your thread title is ‘Mum of baby with Down's syndrome suing government over abortion law’ and you think it’s whataboutery to mention that law suit...?

You didn't say it in your OP.

You said it here at 14.07.

"SharonasCorona

Maire knew from the beginning her baby has Down’s Syndrome. Asking her at 34 weeks pregnant if she wants to abort and as she says, encouraging her ( the expectation is that she should want to abort) is not giving her choice, it’s putting pressure on her."

If you are her, or claiming you know her and have information that isn't included in articles, you should be honest about that.