To stop paying cleaner?

[MoralDialEmma]

Need some thoughts MN! I’ve been paying my cleaner for the last 10 weeks whilst she hasn’t been coming at 80% of salary. She’s self employed via an agency. I had intended to do so until the self-employment packages are available in June (still not comfortable with her coming although this could change). I talked to her today and asked if she would be applying for support in June when it’s available.

Turns out she’s not able to because she hasn’t been declaring her income, and has been receiving benefits due to low income. I know she needs the money and now feel torn. It’s not for me to police her affairs but also I don’t think I want to keep paying when support would have been available had she paid tax. I really like her and value her help, I want to keep her for the long term. There is very little other work around in our area (Midlands).

So AIBU to stop paying her from June until she returns to work?

Or should I look at the bigger picture that we want to be able to help and want her to come back when the time is right?

I am a self employed cleaner. I am not entitled to government support by way of Grant's or Furlough as I haven't been trading long enough. I am in receipt of UC and they've known about my business since it started. I submit my accounts to them every month and take my income onto account when calculating what top up I might need.
I made the decision in march to suspend cleaning till it was safe. I messaged customers this week to check in and the general response is that they'd like to review the situation again in September. I have not and do not expect my customers to pay nor am I putting pressure on them to have me back till they are ready. I'm resourceful, I didn't want to rely on my business in its infancy so I also took on a part time job I'm also adapting what i offer so i can pick up other jobs such as house move cleans and approaching businesses.
It's not your responsibility to make sure your cleaner is okay. We know the risks when we set up our business.

Also, cleaners can come back to work now as a job which can't be worked from home.

But yeah, dump her OP, she's been getting money double bubble.

@chesteroo thank you, I’m not trying to suggest everyone is doing the same thing and realise it’s not an easy job. She’s been with us for about 4 years so she’s not new.

If she is through an agency they should put her on furlough and claim it back. Are you sure she hasn’t been getting 80% from them as well as you paying her full pay?!

Yes certain

@MoralDialEmma
Glad I could be of help. I'm a self employed cleaner by the way (forgot to say in my previous post)
Sorry I made the assumption you paid by cash. There's nothing wrong with that by the way, but prudent in these circumstances.

Oh and none of my clients has offered to pay during this time. I didn't expect them to. I'm rather envious of those who've had help, but I don't think I'd have taken the money as I'm getting govt help.

Or are you known for being particularly anxious?

Oh fuck off, it's not being anxious to not have a cleaner in.

chesteroo and crouching you make me feel better by saying you weren't expecting to be paid. Ours has offered to wear mask and gloves but it's more that we are all spread out working and she couldn't easily work around us.

@methtones I did think the same . @CrouchingTraceyHiddenLadders we did it as we are still on full income and sufficiently flexible with work that we can manage cleaning / kids etc around other commitments. Recognising we are lucky to have this security it felt like the right thing to do to keep paying as she has been so good to us. I now feel like a bit of a mug , but I think she does too iykwim?

I think she's damn lucky you paid her at all.

@MoralDialEmma .
You might feel like a mug, I say you're a good person trying to help someone less fortunate than you.
Some of my clients are in the very fortunate position of being better off in this crisis (this is not an assumption) But I don't expect to be paid for work I'm not doing.
Just for clarification my husband also is self employed and not able to work
He's not getting paid either, but is eligible for the grant from govt. His claim date is later than mine, fingers crossed it's all approved. He meets the criteria, but you never know!
We're not entitled to any other benefits, universal credit etc.
Because we'd put aside money for a rainy day. It'd pouring rain non stop metaphorically

It makes me very angry when people are cheating the system - it’s not just a few hours under the table each week is it, she’s got a full time wage without any tax! It gives others a bad reputation (not a cleaner but have seen a lot of assumptions that all cleaners are like this and it’s not fair). You do realise she’s taking your money and will also still be claiming her benefits all this time too? I’d not be paying her another penny if someone admitted that to me.

I’m SE and struggling just like everyone else, waiting for my grant to come in next week. It’s not much because I’ve earned way more this year, but enough to tide me over. It pays to pay your taxes, and honestly I have no sympathy for people who take the piss by not doing it in this day and age. I would never expect my clients to keep me afloat when I’m not providing a service either.

I'm pretty sure mine doesn't declare her income too, but I've never asked, and I don't want to know. I'm continuing to pay her but have asked if she'll do a deep clean whenever this is over. Although the house wont need it, it's cleaner than ever.

@79andnotout but wouldn’t you direct her to the SE grants now they’re available? If not you’re in same boat as me which is essentially paying for them not to have paid tax

I'm a self employed cleaner fully insured and declaring all income to HMRC via self assesment tax return so have been fortunate enough to be able to claim the self employment grant . While I feel for your cleaner in the current circumstances , I have to say that it's people like her who don't declare their income and have the cheek to also claim benefits that give cleaners a bad name . The vast majority of us are NOT happy to accept cash in hand for our work and defraud the system and it makes me really cross when I read accounts of the few cleaners out there who do . I take great pride in my work and have worked hard to build up a reputable reliable business .

Also just to add none of my clients have paid me , some offered but I didn't feel it was fair as they wouldn't be receiving my cleaning service . But all have confirmed that I will still have them as clients once I resume working .

Thank you @peony68 I’m glad you’re able to get what you need too and that having done the right thing has paid off for you. I have been so careful not to just make assumptions and the work she does for us is such a huge help that I wanted to do the right thing. I certainly won’t be assuming from here on that everyone does it.

To sum up the thread then, and thank you to all the cleaners who have contributed, no one should need to keep paying for cleaners who aren’t coming anymore. Either they’ve paid their taxes and as such will now qualify for a grant, or they haven’t in which case consensus is that we shouldn’t be continuing to pay.

And a big thank you to everyone who works as cleaners, you probably don’t get told it enough but you make a huge difference to many of us.

I don't understand why the agency hasn't furloughed her?

@VanGoghsDog I don’t know enough about this, are they able to furlough SE workers? I asked and they simply said they hadn’t done so because the cleaners are SE, instead they asked clients to consider paying them where they could if they weren’t coming (bit of a guilt trip). They then said that the cleaners can get SE grants but it’s not very much money and is a long way off. They have since put huge pressure on clients to have cleaners back this week, partly also because they need the fees to keep afloat I guess too.

I’m wondering if, if they could have furloughed, whether they didn’t because they knew that many are not paying sufficient taxes and therefore wouldn’t qualify or worse, in the case of mine, would be discovered as working to the extent that it invalidates their benefit claim?? What do you think?? I don’t want to bring nationalities into it but they only employ foreign workers from one country... the people who run it are from the same country. They are pretty big, at a guess I’d say their client base is over a hundred.

I think you need to pick your battles.

You are fond of her, she is an enormous help and you won't find anyone quite like her. How dare she claim a few extra benefits so she can afford to pay her bills and eat

Not declaring your income is wrong, but is this really what you're all going to focus on with all those British billionaires living in tax havens? Starbucks haven't paid tax in years.

Shame on you all. Poverty bashing at it's finest.

This is where the SE confusion has really come to a head.

Technically, by any standard, a cleaner working via an agency is employed by that agency. The agency can't just be an introducer and claim an ongoing fee. I know they all do it but maybe this crisis will mean a proper review of all these practices and better governance. Basically, people are being taken advantage of by these firms.

So, if they say they don't employ her (regardless of whether they should) then no, they can't furlough her.

So she should have claimed the SE support. It may not be"much" but it's the same as a lot of people are having to live on! (As a % of income).

If they can't claim the SE support due to not having done tax returns, I'm afraid my response to that is that's their problem, not yours! They made that choice.

What you could have done would be to pay a smaller "retainer", designed to help top up what they will get.

But I assume if they were claiming benefits they weren't entities to while working then they are probably continuing to do so.

Personally, I would not have this person working in my house now and would not use that agency as they clearly know about it. But I am very by the book, I won't pay traders cash to avoid VAT etc, never.

I do know his hard it to get cleaners though! Can you take her on without the agency, cut out their fee, pay her a bit more, tell her she has to declare it (obviously you can't check this unless you actually employ her) - I mean, it's not like the agency is likely to sue you is it!

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned I’ve just spent several hundred pounds supporting her over recent weeks and found out that she has been defrauding both the benefits system and the tax system. She’s not entitled to any SE grant as she hasn’t declared any income at all, and redirects her income to another account so she can claim benefits. I hardly think that not being complicit with this is poverty bashing, you can politely do one if you think it is.

@VanGoghsDog thanks, I’ve spoken to her and she says she’s not able to change anything so if I was to continue paying I would know that I was doing so whilst she was fraudulently claiming benefits and also not declaring income, even if it would have been under the tax threshold

Sorry meant to finish, yes I agree with you. I can’t continue on that basis

You're not complicit in her tax avoidance/benefit fraudulence and you really shouldn't report her either.

You don't know what or why she's not declaring so please stay out.