To wonder why the Brits are so obsessed with WW2?

[MrsSchadenfreude]

My Mum is 87. She was 12 when the war ended and went through it in London. She remembers being terrified and hungry and getting grief because her grandmother was German. Other elderly relatives don’t have lovely memories either, apart from relief when it was all over. So why do we glorify it all, at every opportunity? Why do we always look back instead of forward?

But that it was too dangerous to divulge full plans and execution date in case they got into the hands of the occupying forces

Obviously he knew there was going to be an invasion. As far as I am aware, he only became aware of the actual plans a few days before. But he knew, like everyone did, that France would be invaded and that there would be a massive price to pay for the French people.

The date itself was changed just a few days before - because of the weather.

Whilst I think it's really important that we don't forget what happened, I do get where the OP is coming from a bit. I have been a bit uncomfortable with all the jolly stringing up of bunting and tea and cake on the doorstep done by people who have no idea about the horrors of what the war was actually like. If it hadn't been for lockdown, our village was planning a VE day party with 1940s dancing and bands, everyone dressing up etc and I don't know, if just feels like it's romanticsing it all. It is so different to the way we remember WW1 and I'm not sure why?

Also, a PP made a good point upthread that our country was in a civil war up until 1998, which people seem to totally forget?

Why does it make the millions of deaths any less worthy of remembrance

Is having a VE themed street party with bunting an act of remembrance though?

I think there are much more appropriate ways of remembering the past and learning from it.

Looking forward and trying to ensure that such events don't happen again.

Has anyone read the book by C J Samson about if we hadn't won the war and Germany occupied the UK.

It was very disturbing

Re: the allies winning - we

But do you actually hear anyone saying stuff like this?

Some people on this very thread said exactly that.

@woodhill I am definitely going to look out for that book, thank you for the heads up x

I didn't celebrate yesterday. Just didn't feel the need, with all the suffering going on in the world at present. I would much rather focus on how to create some good in the now, but appreciate actively reading about, and learning from, all past historical events (but not just the two world wars).

I always remember my grandparents telling me about how when there were the signs not welcoming Irish, it because because of the traitorism felt about this. It couldn’t be forgotten at that point.

And what was the reason for the “no dogs, no blacks” that was also written on the same signs? Same reason, yeah?

And what was the excuse for those signs before the war?

• So I wonder what we have really learnt from WW2.

Probably nothing.*

Exactly this. If anything we learned to refuse to accept all the ways we are repeating history, hiding behind "we were the good guys" as an excuse.

And no doubt there are some people in the UK who would have no problem if certain groups were villified like the Jewish people were during the years before WW2 and othered. I bet they would be informing on them to the authorities as well.

We never had that in this country.

Eh?? That exists right now in the U.K.

We are being actively encouraged to report all manner of things.

Pothole
I get that he gained insights. I have also read the same. However, he flatly refused to ever participate in D Day celebrations and saw the allies coming as an invasion of his country. He didn’t recognise their role in the liberation of paris speech. A role he’d been given to bolster French morale. Had he felt any sense of gratitude and wanted Europe to come together as nations, I struggle to see why would he have snubbed his greatest ally due to this insight. I think far more likely this was an excuse he told himself.

@derxa people on this thread have literally said both that the world owes us (and thus the EU should have treated us better in Brexit negotiations) and that we stood alone. So, yes people do say that.

It's now turned into a politicized witch-hunt of those who, for reasons that are personal to themselves, choose not to wear it.

Absolutely - as on one "You've been fired" programme about The Apprentice, every single person was supporting a poppy. Normally we wear them on our outer clothing anyway. So they had obviously been dished out en masse and any symbolic remembrance was made a mockery of.

Just realised I forgot to mention the deaths and bombing. Unfortunately there were deaths and a lot. No such thing as precision bombing back then. Casualties of war were inevitable. I expect he was greatly upset by the deaths and due to his personality, his emotions will have been coloured by his humiliation of being invaded by the Germans and then the humiliation of the invasion of the allies. The French were nervous about the allies arriving. Show too much enthusiasm and you’ll be shot by the Nazis if the plans failed etc.

Why does it make the millions of deaths any less worthy of remembrance

Is having a VE themed street party with bunting an act of remembrance though?

I think there are much more appropriate ways of remembering the past and learning from it.

@chomalungma I’ve said several times myself now that the street parties are not the norm for observing VE Day, and just seem like an excuse for a drink and a dance. Also that it has suited the government to encourage some of this, this year.

OP, OTOH, is saying she wants to “look forwards not backwards” and that commutations “glorify” war.

Hooliganism isn’t appreciating soccer.

You don’t judge the worth of something by the least-educated, most alcohol-orientated, least-considered reaction to it.

No, I don't judge the worth of appreciating soccer based on hooliganism but I will still say that I don't think hooliganism is an appropriate way to appreciate soccer. And most people would condemn hooliganism.

In the same way, I do think we need to commemorate and honour the sacrifices of WW2 and appreciate how much our current lives owe to the fact the Allied forces win, but I will still say that I do not feel comfortable celebrating it with a street party. And, I will definitely say that I am not comfortable with it being hijacked for boozing and espousing jingoistic right wing views. And just because that hasn't happened in your area doesn't mean it isn't happening at all.

Eh?? That exists right now in the U.K

@ChandlerIsTheBestFriend

My comments were in relation to the fact that we weren't invaded during WW2 (apart from the Channel Islands) and so people in this country didn't have the effects of Nazi occupation, the fear, the collaboration, the resistance, the occupation, the snitching etc.

If we had been invaded, and then we had been liberated, I can imagine that we wouldn't be having street parties and VE bunting today, along with WW2 replica vehicles. We would be looking back at those times very differently.

OP, OTOH, is saying she wants to “look forwards not backwards” and that commutations “glorify” war.

To be fair to OP as the thread has gone it has become clear that she doesn't think we shouldn't commemorate WW2 or that we should forget about it. It wouldn't be the first badly phrased OP and won't be the last.

Appeasement, British fascism, International eugenic thought, have all been comprehensively examined many times.

At present we have a eugenicist advising our PM. So yes, comprehensively examined. Lessons learnt? Probably not.

Hooliganism isn’t appreciating soccer.

You don’t judge the worth of something by the least-educated, most alcohol-orientated, least-considered reaction to it.

No, I don't judge the worth of appreciating soccer based on hooliganism but I will still say that I don't think hooliganism is an appropriate way to appreciate soccer. And most people would condemn hooliganism.

Exactly. That’s what I’ve been saying.

Hence raising an eyebrow at the opportunistic street parties and boozing seems reasonable to me, but abandoning all War related commemorative events (as OP wants) doesn’t.

I’ve said several times myself now that the street parties are not the norm for observing VE Day, and just seem like an excuse for a drink and a dance. Also that it has suited the government to encourage some of this, this year

You'd be forgiven give the images in the media and what's on the streets yesterday for thinking that was the norm.

Exactly this. If anything we learned to refuse to accept all the ways we are repeating history, hiding behind "we were the good guys" as an excuse

Can you explain in what way, I assume you mean the UK, is repeating the history of WW2?

I always remember my grandparents telling me about how when there were the signs not welcoming Irish, it because because of the traitorism felt about this. It couldn’t be forgotten at that point.

What bollocks!

So because De Valera acted bizarrely with regards to Hitler and the leaders of Ireland made the decision to remain neutral, that justified out and out racism/xenophobia against all Irish people? Because 'it couldn't be forgotten'? Even though some Irish men did fight for the Allies?

Horsehit.