To ask why you think we should not have locked down at all

[Methtones]

Not looking for an arguement, just a rational standpoint because I'm seeing lots of posters saying lockdown was a mistake with no reasoning other than "but the economy!".

Spain, France, Italy and Ireland have all implemented some form of lockdown and many of them have implemented a stricter one.

Why should we not have done this? Were these other countries wrong? Should we all have just have been business as usual?

ChardonnayDragon,

Look at all the extra surveillance since 9/11 on the spurious claim there is a terrorist threat - threat is minimal.

Governments ramp up fear to bring in extra monitoring of its citizens and they are doing exactly the same now.

I'm not saying the virus is man made or it isnt serious but it's giving the government a convenient way to limit our freedom. People talk about returning to normal - there won't be a return to normal, we will lose some of our freedom.

Don't think for one minute governments act in the interests in the masses - they don't. Governments do what they are told by those with the real power.

My guess is the lockdown has far more to do with curbing peoples freedoms and bringing in extra surveillance than it has to do with saving lives

I certainly think that's the case in some countries. I doubt very much that there is any evidence that you get more cases if people are allowed to exercise 200m, 400m, 1k, 2k, "within reasonable distance" of their homes.

My DH and I were discussing this issue this morning. My DH thinks the level of lockdown we got was what people in this country will take. And I would rather live in a country where the police's heavy-handedness was questioned and they had to back off, than one where you are stuck indoors for 6 weeks unless you have a dog.

Our lockdown was similar to Germany's in level of strictness, and they have a much smaller death per million of the population figure (indeed a smaller figure full stop). Which indicates that it's not the lockdown measures that make the difference, but other measures such as speed of treatment and the health of the population to start with.

That's why I thought it would have been better to trace contacts at the beginning and contain then.

Now, it would be a completely useless exercise.

But I also think that a bigger part of surveillance is done by private businesses, and with our agreement, loyalty cards for example. Information sharing across SM platforms, we all seem happy with that?

I do agree with much of what GoatyMInge said.

my concern with lockdown is whilst we've avoided overwhelming the NHS, we've created a potentially even bigger problem of peoples' health deteriorating and waiting lists getting longer

Yes, completely. I've said all along that there needs to be some sort of balance. I feel that to an extent we have the worst of both worlds at the moment - a high death rate and probably missing a lot of early warning signs of things that will kill people and/or damage their quality of life in the future.

Goaty, thank you for articulating so well what I (and others) are also feeling.

Cologne 4711,

People are willingly giving up their freedom without question, before long we'll end up wit a glorified police state, tagging of people is becoming a realistic idea that people aren't taking seriously.

Anyone who volunteers for a track and trace on their phone doesn't deserve freedom. Why don't these people just let the government tattoo their NI number on their forehead and be done with it.

Instead of track and trace on their phone why don't we put it in a little collar round their neck, we could even engrave a little tag showing their name and address.

Social distancing is very effective and was the policy the scientists agreed upon in March. The evidence was that the extra stage of complete lockdown didn't achieve much more, but unfortunately public opinion swayed policy and people like Cummings decided to go with the public rather than the scientists.

Reducing spread by enforcing sensible and pragmatic policies will still need to be in place, but there is a lot that can be opened up that won't make a huge difference to R0, but will improve people's lives (apart from those that enjoy seeing others being miserable).

This disease isn't going away. Too many people think we wait until it gets eliminated and then we emerge back to normality, but that's not going to happen. We'll have to live with it, very possibly with no vaccine available for years. Even if a single country does eliminate it (e.g. NZ), they then have to worry about any international travel.

Wooden “ Track and trace is the last thing we need.”

It doesn’t have to be by mobile phone. It can be done the old fashioned way.

I wonder what NICE would have done with the budget that has been spent on CV19 had they been tasked with adding this disease to their mandate?

Just to add, I do agree with Goaty and Wooden.

I actually don’t think we need track and trace for something with such a low mortality rate.

All the countries that managed the virus successfully with testing, tracing etc like Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan were a lot smaller with less populace. They also have a more compliant citizenry.
We should have locked down early and hard like New Zealand. And policed it like Australia, $14000 fines for breaking quarantine etc. Let the virus burn itself out. But we flanneled it and now we have to settle with managing the rate of deaths so the nhs isn't overwhelmed, rather than avoiding deaths. All the money in the world isn't worth the pain of losing a loved one.

"My guess is the lockdown has far more to do with curbing peoples freedoms and bringing in extra surveillance than it has to do with saving lives"

This is why we have to have specific rules. For those unable to think rationally and follow simple guidelines

Why do people think there won't be a vaccine for years when we're testing one right now?

Last there’s no vaccine for SARS.

Lasttraineast,

What is the point you are making?

I think we needed one but I am glad to live in a country that done a soft version, I do not want to be in a country that polices shopping, stops children going out for exercise etc etc.

I also think we locked down at the right time. Too early and people would of stopped sticking to it quicker and then it wouldn’t of helped our nhs and would of been pointless.

The soft approach worked the nhs isn’t over loaded by Covid 19 and I think most people do now see that we will need to be careful even when the lockdown is lifted.

How anyone can think the government here in the England have done this to take our freedom is beyond me. This is England not China, not North Korea its England

Why do people think there won't be a vaccine for years when we're testing one right now?

Because that's not how it works. Testing something doesn't mean you are close to success.

For those unable to think rationally and follow simple guidelines

Boris Johnson, for example.

‘The majority of the vulnerable were not / are not walking about but living mostly very quiet lives at home or in care homes.’

The vulnerable, as defined by the government, included asthmatics and everyone else who got the flu jab and people with weight above a certain level, as well as various other very common health problems.

And we all still have to go to work, some during the lockdown.

I don't know where you're reading people saying this this OP, but I haven't seen lots of posters saying we shouldn't have locked down at all - quite the reverse in fact. Many people think we should have done it sooner, and perhaps more stringently.

@Woodentopper

So you’re not interested in saving lives and beating Coronavirus because you have a mad conspiracy theory...wow!

Ilovemypantry,

I'm as interested in saving lives as much as the next person.

@Woodentopper
But you won’t sign up to track and trace which is the way forward to help stop the spread? Because you have some weird idea that It’s all really for another purpose?