To ignore what I’ve found out.

[CD41]

Posting here for traffic. Decided to research my family tree. I’ve tried before and didn’t have enough time so thought lockdown might be perfect.

I already have a lot of info on my maternal grandmothers side but nothing on my maternal grandfathers side. I was incredibly close to my grandad. He only died a couple months ago but he didn’t talk about his family much.

So tonight I was doing some basic searching on ancestry. I learnt that my grandads mum and dad got married 8 months before he as born. Maybe it’s because she was pregnant? Who knows.

Doesn’t sound too bad but my grandad has a brother 5 years older than him who I always assumed to have the same father as they share the same name. I then discovered that my grandads dad appeared to be married until maybe 18 months before he was born. I never knew he had a first wife. It also means that he would have been married to first wife when my great uncle (still alive and in his 80’s) was born so likely not his dad after all unless it was an affair at first. It appears my grandads dads first wife died young. It didn’t seem likely they had children.

I tried finding my great uncles birth registration. It appears that his name was changed from his mother’s maiden name to my grandads surname. But obviously without seeing the birth certificate no idea who great uncles father is.

Bearing in mind my grandads dad died when he was very young and he cannot really remember him. It would also make sense as my grandad had the same name as his dad. Surely a first born son would take the name? Not the second? I had never even thought of that way before.

Now aibu to not say anything? I assume if my grandad did know he didn’t tell anyone or he may have just told my granny and they kept it quiet. Or maybe he didn’t know..

I guess nothing has changed for my grandad. His mum and dad were his parents regardless but it’s his brother who maybe lived a lie and they were in fact half brothers (I don’t think that makes any difference, my children have different fathers but consider them just brother and sister not half of anything).

They also had another older brother who their mum had really young.

Shall I just keep quiet? I worry if I tell my mum she’ll just go telling everyone and it’s probably not the right thing to do right now.

Aibu to keep it to myself?

Even in the past people had complicated lives. I know many older people whose parents split up, were not married but had children with others, in the war years people were often put into care homes because one or more parents died.

Sometimes going into all this too much results in upset for others.

My best friend had an aunt who was a few years older than her mother, let’s call her Auntie Jessie. Best friend’s Mum sadly died in her forties. Best friend was quite close to her granny and Auntie Jessie.

One day when bf was about 30 her Dad mentioned in passing something about “Aunty Jessie’s father” and the penny dropped that Aunty Jessie and her Mum has different Dads. Bf asked Granny about it, who confirmed that Auntie Jessie had been born when Granny was young and unmarried, then adopted later on by Granny’s husband, my bf’s Grandad. However Granny also said “Oh, did you not know that dear? I thought your Mum and Dad would have told you”. She wasn’t remotely ashamed or embarrassed.

Turned out that they all assumed someone else would have told bf and her sister and were amazed that they didn’t know!

I've done a lot of work on my family tree. It's brought up a lot of 'scandals' and babies appearing 5 or 6 months after marriage. Best one was a couple who had I think it was 6 kids....trouble is 2 were born AFTER dad had died! And looking at dates she couldn't have been pregnant before he died!

I would say nothing. Speaking from experience I know it can come as bit of a shock to find this kind of thing out. I did about my great grandfather - my grandma always believed he had abandoned her mother after my great grandma dies it came as a great shock to her to discover she was conceived out of wedlock and year older than she thought she was and in the divorce papers that he filed for divorce on the grounds of being abandoned by her. After my Grandmas death i discovered that he tried to get a discharge from the New Zealand Army after world War 1 but was turned down and then did return to live with them until she was about 4 and that is when she abandoned him. My grandma repeated a similar thing with my mum. I didn't say anything to my mum. All I took from it was how important it was not to repeat any kind of mistake like that with my children and be grateful that today we don'y have to lie. It did leave me feeling very sad for my grandma that the rejection she felt was false and I could see it affected her life and self esteem.

I agree about not saying anything.

After my Nana died my Dad discovered that his Mum didn't know who her Dad was (father unknown on birth certificate).

She had a sister 10 years older than her and a brother 20 years older than her (which we knew about but I always thought the age gap was very odd).

Nana was very 'proper' and must have been very embarrassed about this, I suspect she didn't ever tell my Grandfather.

She always said that her father died when she was a baby so didn't have any memories of him and she made up a name for him and so all of our family trees in our baby books has this name on!

My Dad must have been devastated when he found out as he doesn't like talking about it, it feels odd for me so I can't imagine how it feels for him.

My grandad was the eldest child and had a different surname to both his mum and dad. All now long gone. His parents married after his birth. His sister would not have it that he was illegitimate and would always immediately shut down any rumours of different parentage, claiming that their mum was looked after by a different family and sometimes used their surname.
After a bit of digging turns out he was born in a brothel and we think his father may have been a client. The other children were born sporadically during and after WW1 and it seems G Grandad kept disappearing to avoid enlisting and left G Grandma to cope on her own.

ladycarlotta Sat 02-May-20 23:19:19

I agree with this. It’s entirely possible that you Grandfather and Great Uncle did share a father. Sex out of wedlock isn’t the modern phenomenon we like to think it is, it’s just that the ways of dealing with the consequences have changed.

I wouldn't mention it to anyone in the family but curiosity would get the better of me and I'd have to delve into it a bit more!
Is Great Uncle's mother Great Grandad's second wife? She could have got pregnant out of wedlock to someone else earlier on and Great Grandad later met and married her and adopted Great Uncle or simply brought him up as her own. Or she might have been widowed.
Do you have the date of death of Great Grandad's first wife? She might have died before he got together with second wife. Lots of people did die young.
You can order birth certificates online too if you are really curious.

I don't think there's any great scandal here. Women who were widowed or got pregnant out of wedlock had to marry someone else to survive financially. We have a couple of cases like this in our family. Who knows whether the children knew who their biological fathers were.

Don't mention it to Great Uncle though in case he doesn't know.

When doing ours, my dad and his cousin found out that my incredibly prim and upright great grandmother had left a husband and 3 children back in Ireland and come to England where she met my great grandfather, 'married' him and had another 5 kids including my gran.

Cousin poked around a bit and it was a dv situation. Kids were left with relatives to raise in safer environment, first husband drank himself to death but the first few kids of 'my' family were illegitimate.

Horrible thing to find out. Only one or two of my granny's siblings were still alive but were very elderly so cousin didn't mention it. My dad (who was extremely close to his nan) said it explained a lot about her.

Thanks all. This is all still new to me. I definitely won’t tell anyone.

I get things thing were different back then. I was born to a single mum and even in the late 80’s and early 90’s my mum still felt judged back then mainly by the older population at the time who I guess had lived through that era.

My grandads mum and dad seemed to have married in the months before my grandad was born. My great grandads alleged first wife died a year prior to that. I assumed that my great grandad and first wife had been together when she died but who knows? Maybe it’s possible that they had separated and my great grandparents had my great uncle out of wed lock but didn’t officially marry until after his first wife had died?! But it was shamed upon. Great uncles birth registry has his mums maiden name and my grandads surname in brackets so it’s a little confusing.

After my Nana died my Dad discovered that his Mum didn't know who her Dad was (father unknown on birth certificate).

@scrivette you said that your Nana had whole story about her father, a name etc. How can you be sure that it was all made up, is it not possible that her Mum told her the truth?

What I mean is, have you concluded that she didn’t know simply from the blank on the birth certificate, or is there other evidence that she didn’t know?

My grandads mum and dad seemed to have married in the months before my grandad was born. My great grandads alleged first wife died a year prior to that. I assumed that my great grandad and first wife had been together when she died but who knows?

If first wife died a year before Gr. Grandad married 2nd wife that doesn't necessarily indicate that they were separated or anything like that. In those days a year would have been more than long enough for a widower to meet someone, get her pregnant and marry her. Things were more transactional - he wanted a wife, she had a child (Great Uncle) and needed financial support. They knew each other already somehow or they met later. She was pregnant again so they married.
I reckon Great Uncle's Dad is not Great Grandad. You're assuming Great Grandad had an affair which resulted in Great Uncle. Possible, but a scenario where he has a different Dad is probably more likely.

Grandad left the family when my mum was 5. Grandad had been married before and had a son and daughter. He was divorced from his first wife due to adultery with our grandmother. Mum knows this but spent her whole life wondering what happened to her dad (assumed he'd gone abroad or died). He had no contact at all with any family members after he left, even his twin sister who he was very close to. Private detectives found no trace of him.
After researching online i found that that grandad changed his name by deed poll at the end of WW2 and was living with another man 40 miles away. Presumably changed name as being gay/bi was illegal back then and easier to hide if you had the same (unusual) surname and could pretend to be brothers. Cousin told me at a mums funeral that grandad was gay (dont know how he knew) but my mum was never told by her mum and i think everyone assumed she knew. At some point grandad and partner split up and he finally died 6 months after my mum (and he died 5 miles away from where she was living).
I didn't say anything to mum because knowing her i think she would have been more hurt to know that he was living fairly close by but never bothered to contact any of his children or sister.

After my Nana died my Dad discovered that his Mum didn't know who her Dad was (father unknown on birth certificate).
That means they weren't married and the father wasn't present at the Register office, your Nana almost certainly knew who he was but his name wouldn't be in the records. 'Father unknown' is quite a cruel way of recording it 'father not present at registration' or similar would be better.

U r really intruding into other people's business. You would hate to be in position where someone is doing that to you. Your private business is yours, his is his!!! You need to stop.

I would talk to your uncle and say that you want to research your family and ask him what he remembers. Don't tell him what you already know - take him as a starting point.

He will tell you what he wants you to know. He might already know anyway. You will get some stories to add flesh to your research and it is always more interesting to know what these people were like.

I agree with everyone else not to say anything. I know from my own experience that the story I was told by DM about my brother's birth and the story he was told are different. His story is probably closer to the truth, but I have no way to find the truth out. I wouldn't have judged DM about what happened, but I am a product of different times. DM would have been shamed and unable to work in teaching if the truth had come out. DGM would also have been shamed. I don't know if she knew the truth or not. I suspect not. I will never know. My children know this story, but I didn't tell them until they were adults. One is interested, one is not. The family history will be there for them should they want to view it when I am dead.

On another note. Today I am looking at my grandmothers side which is much easier as I know a lot more. My grandmothers grandad had something like 6 children from his first marriage and 6 from his second (or similar). So my great grandad had so many brothers and sisters and my gran so many cousins 🤭

I found out by accident that an extremely close relative has a different name and DOB on their birth certificate. Nothing to suggest different parents but I can never tell this person I know as they would go utterly ballistic, even though I can totally justify the reason for needing their birth certificate (not family tree research).

The discovery has made me wonder about the unhealthy family dynamic they witnessed as a child and if there wasn't some sort of abuse going on there, hence all the secrecy and unwillingness to discuss that side of the family.

I think sometimes keeping schtum is the kinder option.

There's a lot of scandal and past 'doings' in my family that I've always wanted to put into a book. When the last member of the generation affected by it is gone, I may do. She's over 90 now and we are recording some of her family memories, which is lovely, but we are staying away from 'family scandals'.

When she goes I might get around to writing it all, but I certainly wouldn't do so while she's around. The previous generations took some of these things VERY much more seriously than we do and I think she'd hate it to be exposed, even though nobody would care very much in these enlightened times.

So keep your peace, OP. At least until those concerned are gone.

Exactly what @ladycarlotta says (excellent , sensible advice )
Documents are official records and don’t tell the human story behind .

Please leave alone ..

I speak from experience and I understand the curiosity but just don’t do it .

While one of the family stories I am talking about was fascinating ( honestly it could have made a film such a great plot - with the greatest of respect to those involved )
I thought I “ had “ the story completely for about 10 years ..

Last year during a long heart to heart with an aunt who lived in another country she told me some things which amounted to a major “ plot twist “ and my view ( not that I’m entitled to judge people of course ) of the whole story shifted in a huge way .

What she told me was clearly known by many family members ( including my own father ) who for their own reasons never discussed.

They just allowed everyone to run with the “ official story “ - their choice .. so please leave alone .

I find it fascinating, but I would probably keep it to myself if I thought that what I had found might upset someone.
From my own research I discovered that my gt-gt-Grandfathers parents weren't married. His birth certificate suggests they were but there is no record of a marriage at all. His mother died and his father remarried. On that marriage certificate he's listed as a widower. But there is no record of a death for the name of the woman who was his first wife (no Joanne Bloggs, so to speak).
My gt-Grandparents on that same side got married 2 months before my grandfather was born. I don't know if he ever knew this.

I understand the fascination OP but I'd leave it alone.

I found out when I was 12 that my mum's real father had been killed in action in 1944 when my grandmother was pregnant with her. My grandmother had remarried when my mum was 9 months old and her second husband (who I knew as my grandad) had adopted her. I realised at my grandparents Ruby wedding party and thought, hang on my mum is 41! I thought she had just been an accidental pregnancy and they had been delayed getting married because of the war, etc, but they were married and my mum wasn't illegitimate. Even though there is no "shame"' here, my mum finds this incredibly painful. SHe had a good childhood, two younger brothers and her adopted dad (my grandad) was an amazing man. My grandmother would never talk about her first husband though. My dh is very into family history and found out which ship he went down on, and even traced some living cousins of my mum (related to her real dad) but she didn't have the remotest interest.
You can't assume everyone will have the same fascination.

I was 23 when my older sister let it slip that our dad was married (to someone else) it wasn’t something that upset me at the time but after my mum died, I tried to find his older sister who my mum maintained contact with, but was unsuccessful unfortunately. However during the process I got my dads death certificate which named his wife as informant and when I was doing searches I found she died in 2005, on the same road that they lived, and that they had a son. Unfortunately I haven’t managed to trace him

I think it was quite normal for people to get married due to a baby on the way, that wasn't so much shameful in itself, as it would have been if they hadn't married. It was seen as the right thing to do, and typically wasn't a big secret although yes dates may have been fudged later.

This generational difference came up recently in our family though, my mum mentioned (publically, on FB) a cousin's illegitimate pregnancy at the time of her (very young) death, and the cousin's sister popped up to say excuse me, that isn't true. Mum apologised and said she must have been mistaken, but I wondered if it was true but the deceased's sister still felt all these years later that it was a shameful thing that shouldn't be mentioned in public. (My mum is a bit oblivious to things like this because it wouldn't occur to her to be upset about such things as illegitimacy, so she doesn't think about other people being upset by them.)