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Shocked about death in care homes **MNHQ content warning**

340 replies

happyandsingle · 28/04/2020 22:10

Just this.Cannot believe how care home residents and staff have been thrown to the wolves.
Everything focused on the NHS it's like the elderly didnt matter.
Feel ashamed how we treat our elderly and even if the government act now in my opinion it's to late as to many lives have been lost.
To think the goverment need to be held accountable for this.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Fr0thandBubble · 29/04/2020 14:14

@Cantory If you think there is enough money for the government to fund everyone’s social and healthcare - with the aim of prolonging their life for as long as possible - you are deluded.

In this pandemic, the government have prioritised the young over the elderly in care homes. And I support that 100%.

On that note, I think I am going to bow out now.

happyandsingle · 29/04/2020 14:23

Think that's a good idea

OP posts:
EmeraldShamrock · 29/04/2020 14:23

In this pandemic, the government have prioritised the young over the elderly in care homes. And I support that 100%
Most people do. It is the way it is been handled, care staff carrying out palliative care without PPE. No dignity.
Remember the government has prioritised the young and HEALTHY No space for the disabled or those without a high chance of recovery.
My ASD DC when adults would hinder their recovery I expect they'd be binned too.

Napqueen1234 · 29/04/2020 14:26

It’s really difficult I completely disagree with people being left to die but things to remember are:

  • the average stay in a nursing home is 6 months people generally go there to die. A nursing home is different to a residential home where people need support but are generally not end of life (often have disabilities etc)
  • most GPs will have agreements of treatment limitation with nursing care residents and their families. I.E even before this often people with signs of chest infections etc are given comfort care in their home as they prefer not to be admitted when possible.
  • GPs have been given information and action plans of how to provide the correct medication very quickly to support nursing home residents to have a comfortable death which is all anyone can ask for when you are incredibly elderly and need round the clock care.

I agree the care is generally sub par (as pp have said can only blame the government in cases of local authority homes not private ones) but resources are scarce atm and need to be focussed on people who are likely to get better whatever age they are. Inherently nursing home residents do not fit this.

Humphriescushion · 29/04/2020 14:29

The no,s are alarming. And i believe we are going to be updated on this in this afternoons update! Lets hope.

mobile.twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1255055026537586689

Baaaahhhhh · 29/04/2020 14:34

But that is very different from saying anyone who is in a care home should not have medical treatment because they are old.

But no-one, anywhere, including the government is saying that. Everyone gets the treatment they need whatever age they are. Read my post. All my elderly relatives have had extensive treatment, and continue to do so. I just don't understand why so many people think that the old DO NOT get treatment. They DO.

Angelofdeath · 29/04/2020 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Baaaahhhhh · 29/04/2020 14:35

In this pandemic, the government have prioritised the young over the elderly in care homes

The whole bloody point of lockdown is to shield the old and the vulnerable. So this is just not true either.

EmeraldShamrock · 29/04/2020 14:36

@Humphriescushion It is horrendous. People need to see it in black and white.
Though many will continue to excuse the numbers they were elderly or had underlying illness.

shinynewapple2020 · 29/04/2020 14:40

The care home where my mum lives is isolating residents in their rooms for two weeks on return from hospital . They are wearing full PPE to look after these residents, at least that's what I've been told. They had a resident with symptoms a couple of weeks back and they tried to keep all residents in their room for a week after that , although I would imagine that they struggled with this in the dementia unit where mum is, given a lot of the residents there are mobile but confused. We had a letter saying that they had got PPE and that they would use this when giving personal care, obviously I don't know whether this happens in practice or not. I've had recent updates from them with pictures of mum sitting outside at the weekend so will assume all is well at present.

It's a really difficult call about whether the elderly should be taken to hospital or remain in their care home if they become very poorly and prognosis is not good. For my own parent I would rather she remained in a place she was familiar and knows the staff rather than be transported somewhere confusing to her; I don't think ventilation would have a good result long term for someone like my mum. Obviously the other side of this is more risk of infection being passed on in the care home, and, lovely thought they are I wouldn't expect that most care home
Staff have the skills / knowledge to care for those seriously ill.

I get sent weekly update letters from the company as a whole (they own several homes across the country) and as a comparison of death figures , they are only slightly higher this year than what would normally be expected, although I can see that this isn't going to be the case everywhere given some of the really high death figures I've seen in the media.

So whilst I'd disagree with posters saying that all care homes are bad, I think it is a bit of a lottery and probably not even necessarily that some private homes costing more are any safer.

Humphriescushion · 29/04/2020 14:41

I know incredible. I really hope the government announces these figures today in the update. I believe they said they would.

cantory · 29/04/2020 14:43

Lock down only happened after massive public pressure.

cantory · 29/04/2020 14:45

@Napqueen1234 When people are talking about care homes they mean residential homes and nursing homes. I have had several relatives live in residential homes happily for some years and then quickly die there.

cantory · 29/04/2020 14:47

@frothandbubble Well never mind after this with the amount of people dying, less money will be needed to look after people in care homes.

jasjas1973 · 29/04/2020 14:53

@Iamthewombat

The shortfall in social care funding is approx 6billion p.a. rising to 8billion over the next 5 years.
So yes, 100 billion for HS2 would pay for many years of fully funded social care.
Of course corp tax receipts are rising because the economy grows! but if there was a simple correlation between CT and revenues, then why isn't Germany, with a very successful economy & hi social welfare, got lower CT rates? they are much higher than the UKs.
Also, Govt halted the tax cut to 17% by your argument, they have deliberately cut their own tax revenues.... but why stop at 17% why not 5% your argument is we 'll get even more in!!!

The real reason is that we have chosen to privatise elderly care, taken it from state run services, relying on the "market" to fix the "problem" but it hasn't worked, elderly care is not something that the profit motive can resolve.

jasjas1973 · 29/04/2020 14:56

The whole bloody point of lockdown is to shield the old and the vulnerable. So this is just not true either

Patently not so, as deaths in care homes are out stripping those in hospitals, so whatever the stated aims, we have failed yet again in this CV crisis

mondaynoon · 29/04/2020 14:56

I'm going to hide this thread - some of the views on it are disgraceful.

shinynewapple2020 · 29/04/2020 14:56

@Fr0thandBubble - regarding your comment that people in care homes with dementia have no quality of life - for many people that is not true. There is a massive difference in both mental and physical health of people in care homes with dementia.

My mum has Alzheimer's. She can remember very little but is still mobile and can still show whether she is enjoying something or not. She enjoys listening to music, dancing on her more mobile days, and eating cake. Please don't tell me she has no quality of life.

My dad, on the other hand had vascular dementia, he became immobile, unable to eat proper food and completely confused with hallucinations. It was a release for him when he passed away.

Just don't use the phrase 'has dementia' as a generalisation.

Echo08 · 29/04/2020 14:59

Nat6999 that is totally shameful but it doesn't surprise me working in community care for 30yrs .There are a lot of bad agencies out there sadly. I am lucky i have superb bosses , they work alongside us , ppe is not an issue nor is going off sick .If we are ill we don't go in , safety of our service users comes first.

Frequency · 29/04/2020 14:59

Care homes don't just include nursing homes. We have many residents who were there when I started and I suspect will be there long after I leave/retire since they're only a few years older than me. We take people who are over fifty (both who need care and who do not) or under fifty if you have a physical or mental condition (including mental health issues) that require you to need some level of care or supervision. Our rehabilitation suite since I've been there has housed everyone from a 21yo with mobility issues to a 101 yo on end of life (the hospice was full and there was a waiting list fir nursing care).

Iamthewombat · 29/04/2020 15:06

The shortfall in social care funding is approx 6billion p.a. rising to 8billion over the next 5 years. So yes, 100 billion for HS2 would pay for many years of fully funded social care.

No, it wouldn’t. Look at the maths again. Who calculated this £6 Bn shortfall, and on what basis? What is the shortfall covering? An increase in standards or the difference between what local authorities can pay per resident now and what the care homes need to charge for current levels of care?

You (I think it was you) also stated that people’s own assets shouldn’t be used to fund care, so subtract that from your starting point. You should also define whether your estimates cover just the people currently in care homes or people receiving care visits in their own homes too, and what your assumptions are for the growth in older people needing care in future years. If you are going to attempt economic arguments you have to define your inputs clearly.

Of course corp tax receipts are rising because the economy grows!

That’s what ‘inflation adjusted’ meant.

Also, Govt halted the tax cut to 17% by your argument, they have deliberately cut their own tax revenues.... but why stop at 17% why not 5% your argument is we 'll get even more in!!!

That was not my argument. There is an optimum level for CT that brings in maximum revenue. Higher is not always better. If it were, every country would be charging 50% CT. It’s not a linear scale where lower rates = more revenue. If you think you know better than the economists at the Treasury, though, by all means go and offer them your services. Do report back.

shinynewapple2020 · 29/04/2020 15:14

@Tolleshunt - regarding your comment of discharging elderly patients with Covid to 'hot' homes with the virus - how on earth do you think this would work in practice given that most places no longer have local authority homes?

calpolatdawn · 29/04/2020 15:18

Also as someone who worked in community and residential and nursing care, residents who went into hospital always came out worse, bed sores the lot, it was a kiss of death.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 29/04/2020 16:42

@FrOthandBubble, I do agree with you.

I’ve had a parent, an in-law and an aunt with dementia, who eventually moved into care homes (incidentally all very good) and over many years I spent an awful lot of time visiting them. People who haven’t lived with dementia frequently have absolutely no idea of what it can often mean in practice.
Even before the late stages, when people are so often doubly incontinent, no longer recognise any of their family, have no clue about anything and can no longer hold any sort of conversation, sufferers are often anxious, fretful or distressed about things they maybe can’t even name.
I will never forget one poor lady, in her 80s but well before late stage, crying and terribly distressed because she needed to get home to her mother, who would be so worried at not knowing where she was.

The staff were immensely kind, but nothing anyone said could comfort her. And this was not a one-off, it was an almost daily occurrence.

In so many cases I saw over the years, including my own mother, who was in a most pitiful state when she finally died at 97, it would have been IMO verging on cruelty to ‘strive to keep alive.’

I made sure care home staff knew that except in e.g. the case of. 2nd broken hip, when it would have been unavoidable, there was to be no hospital for my poor mother - in any case a terrible place for anyone with dementia, when they have no idea what is going on or why - and certainly no ‘striving’. There may often come a time when letting nature take its course will IMO be far kinder than the alternative.

Aridane · 29/04/2020 17:22

Shocked about death in care homes *MNHQ content warning**

What’s the content warning - that some posters have entrenched ageist outlooks and a casual disregard of the elderly???

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