Shocked about death in care homes **MNHQ content warning**

[happyandsingle]

Just this.Cannot believe how care home residents and staff have been thrown to the wolves.
Everything focused on the NHS it's like the elderly didnt matter.
Feel ashamed how we treat our elderly and even if the government act now in my opinion it's to late as to many lives have been lost.
To think the goverment need to be held accountable for this.

@Baaaahhhhh Everyone 90 plus who has thought about it has a DNR because resuscitation does not tend to work in that age group. And of course you only accept treatments that will enhance your life.

But that is very different from saying anyone who is in a care home should not have medical treatment because they are old.

@frothandbubble if measures such as care home staff and residents having flu vaccines had not been done, then yes I would blame the care home. Care homes already enact measures to try and stop flu killing residents. Of course nothing is 100% effective. But they don't just shrug their shoulders and go, oh well they were old.

@frothandbubble You are the one saying you don't think money should be spent on caring for and keeping old people alive.

Some of the comments are making my blood boil!

Well, I’m afraid I just don’t believe that prolonging life beyond the point where there is little or no quality of life - and I do not call being in a care home with dementia (which 75% of care home residents have) quality of life - is the responsibility of the government.

I appreciate that you and I have different views on that but I don’t think either of us is going to change the other’s mind.

This thread was not started as a debate as to how long ppl should live but about the current treatment they and care staff are receiving during this pandemic which is in my opinion not acceptable.

And in the future we should have a conversation about letting old people die and spending the money on young people instead

The thing is, genuinely in the near future we do need to have this conversation because worldwide we have an ageing population. More people living longer with a period of dependency, and fewer working age adults. At some point it will not be possible for the smaller number of working age adults to support the dependent elderly population. I am not happy about this situation, but it will be the reality, and we need to discuss it before it becomes a crisis.

We do 'let' people die in that we consider when it is in people's best interests to not continue various treatments and interventions. I understand from friends who have worked in medical care in the US and Italy that this is not the case there (if you are insured in the US that is) when people continue to receive 'life saving' treatment until the bitter end. Many people (myself included) would consider this cruel.

We do need to have a discussion about when it is better to 'let' somebody die. Personally I would rather that the money the state spends on me is weighted towards when I'm younger, and the money makes the most difference to my life, eg better education, and I die earlier and don't receive lifesaving treatment for e.g. pneumonia when I'm frail and dependent.

@HopelesslydevotedtoGu I completely agree with you.

I’ve had elderly relatives in care homes. My experience was that medical science was aggressively used to keep them breathing even though they were in pain, distressed & had absolutely no quality of life (in one case, incontinent, bed bound and demented). And I think the motivation for this was to make money for the homes, keep the fees rolling in. It wasn’t about welfare.

I think a lot of people are in denial about the true medical state of the very elderly in care homes, and about what extreme old age really means, in terms of frailty and vulnerability, and so don’t understand that yes, a new virus will result in many many deaths.

@frotthandbubble So Captain Tom should have been put out of his "misery" years ago?
And are you saying once you have dementia you should die?

@Ilovemystarter That sounds a terrible home and no not my experience at all. I have had elderly relatives in care homes for a number of years and enjoying life. All died quite quickly near the end.

@Cantory Stop it - that is the third time you have insinuated that I am in favour of killing people. Absolutely enough.

Going back a bit why aren't the government counting all deaths?

Can we just stop with that now? It's been explained so often, all deaths counted, publicly published, etc

And, as of today, the 2 previously separate reporting systems have been merged making daily reporting of all deaths possible. If it works without a hitch it will be reported today.

If you're going to castigate the government, accuse them of hiding deaths, lying etc at least do it with some facts to back you up. Otherwise you just become part of the disinformation we all have to wade through every day.

The situation in care homes is worse than we imagine.
My friend’s mother is in a care home . Ten people have died ( of covid19) in the care home so far.
The care home is in danger of closing as they do not have enough service users.

The Government has to be held to account for not recognising the potential problems which could arise as a result of Covid19.

@Fr0thandBubble You do realise not everyone in a care home is 95.
I have a disabled son. It is nearly impossible to get him the support he needs in school because of local authority cut-backs. Would I rather my tax money get spent on disabled children I am shocked you have a disabled son. You are aware when your DS is a young adult he will be one of those disposal people who have DNR's pushed onto him when the next pandemic arrives.
I hope you also realise the attitude you hold towards the elderly is on par with many peoples opinion of disabled people.
Why keep them they won't financially contribute to society.

And anyone with capacity is still asked if they want treatment or not. Elderly people are asked if they want to be kept alive. So my FIL declined treatment for cancer in his early 80s, which I think was the right decision.
If people do not have capacity their relatives are asked whether treatment should go ahead.
Any decent care home has a waiting list and does not need to keep its residents alive for money. If you are being truthful then report that care home that is doing that.

@EmeraldShamrock You have massively put words in my mouth and that is utterly unfair.

Someone who is very old and is in a care home should not, in my opinion, have the same priority to government-funded healthcare as the young. Not because they “do not contribute to society” but because they have already had a long life and will die at some point very soon anyway. I’m sorry if you think that’s harsh but it is true - we’re are all going to die. It’s not a tragedy, it’s a fact if life. If priorities need to be made (and they do) then the young (absolutely including the disabled) should get it.

And many parents are reporting they are being pressured to sign DNRs for autistic adult children.

@frothandbubble Funny how in other rich countries people do not make the decision between let all old people die so we can save young people or let young people die. You are talking as if we are some poverty stricken nation.

@frothandbubble you keep saying money should not be spent on keeping old people alive. What do you think happens then? They die. So yes you are in favour of old people dying unless they are rich and self funded.
So sorry I will change that, you are fine with poor older people dying.

I just don’t get why people are up in arms about this - what exactly do they want the government to do? And how do they expect it to be funded? I think a lot of people need to get real about this - we can’t try to keep everyone alive forever - it’s not in anyone’s interest As I said many people share your feelings above about disabled people.

And many parents are reporting they are being pressured to sign DNRs for autistic adult children Exactly. Especially those young adults housed in residential care. Surplus to requirement.

...and lifespans have increased exponentially.

Somewhere, a maths teacher gently spins in his grave.

@Fr0thandBubble I dont know why you think you have been misquoted I think ppl have clearly defined on here what your views are.

So Captain Tom should have been put out of his "misery" years ago?
And are you saying once you have dementia you should die?

So yes you are in favour of old people dying unless they are rich and self funded.

The thing is, @cantory, you probably have some valid points to make but they are getting lost in your knee-jerk responses. You know quite will that @Fr0thandBubble isn’t saying any of those things.

By refusing to engage with her real arguments, and claiming that eg she wishes that 99 year old national treasures were dead, you undermine your own position and make her look more reasonable and sensible. Which I imagine is not what you intended.

Quite WELL, not quite will!