Fruit picking? Are they f***ing serious?

[emmcan]

So whichever hapless muppet got dragged out today to do the daily lying to the gullible has suggested that furloughed workers could br picking fruit.

Fuck me, how fucking badly run is this shitshow?

The reason that we have had a two decades of migrant workers doing these jobs is because British people are too lazy and incompetent to do them.

And now they expect furloughed workers to head out into the fields and get their hands dirty?

It will happen, in a fashion, as they will just stop paying money to people who refuse to work, but it will be an appalling form of slave labour.

Well people wanted migrants to "stop stealing their jobs", and this is one of the jobs the UK heavily relied on EU labour to do. With the currently discussed immigration system there wont be any EU labour to do this job in future either, so it looks like UK citizens are going to have to suck it up and do the jobs that they didnt want the EU citizens to continue "stealing".

It's ironic really...

@Ihaventgottimeforthis totally agree with regards to DEFRA. I actually did a snort laugh when they said prisoners. I’m not against it totally and have some insight into it as my OH regularly takes prisoners on day release from the local low security unit in for work experience at his company. Some aren’t interested, some end up back inside or being moved back to higher security prisons due to their behaviour (including legging it!) and the odd few have been really keen, going to college to learn the trade when they are released. But that’s individuals, not squads. And not armed with 10 inch butcher knives!

Care homes - let’s think about this for a second. Your average Joe out there has no experience with caring for people. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows it’s not as simple as just giving them a cup of tea and walking them along a corridor.

I worked in care for a long time. You do realise a majority of staff in care homes are school leavers or adults with very little in terms of qualifications, who often do it because it dosent require any previous skills, and are at most given 5 days of questionable training before being allowed to work full time in a care home? Obviously there are some very experienced and qualified workers, but in my experience they often leave due to the emotional.burden of witnessing people with not a clue providing sub par care and the companies not doing a thing about it. In my experience a lot of the best carers I've worked with have been EU citizens who generally have more experience caring due to different societal values, but the amount of eu carers have sharply declined due to brexit and have been largely replaced by adults who see it as a means to get paid and not due to being caring or compassionate towards those they care for.

This exact attitude is why I ended up leaving care work, as although I was skilled and highly qualified I got shot down repeatedly as correct care involves a lot more effort then most are willing to put in and due to whistle blowing on bad practice (lack of changing pads all the way to carers being verbally aggresive) I quickly found myself without a job from head office. I worked in 5 care homes all on bank contracts, from elderly Care, to supported living, to complex care and learning disabilities (young adults) and forensic hospitals (eg care homes for those severly disabled who require high levels of care but need medical staff eg nurses on site although bulk on the work was done by carers). Ive literally seen adults with complex needs misdiagnosed as the misdiagnosis allows for the prescription of sedatives when the carers couldn't cope.

And it was pretty much the same across the board.

@LittleFoxKit, I don’t disagree with you. And I will say, for the record, I did not vote for Brexit. I very much wanted to remain part of the EU and recognised that immigration works both ways. I was in the nearly 50 % who wanted to stay.

I don’t disagree with the problem with the lack of training, no previous skills required and leaving because of the burden of watching poor care. I do however believe the care will be a hell of a lot worse if people are forced into it due to their current job being unavailable. I think the attitude towards the elderly in this country is bad enough and I think the biggest problem in the sector is also the country’s attitude towards carers. Threads like this don’t help - it’s seen as the job people should be doing because they can’t do theirs, it’s a back up, something people should be forced into.
Maybe it’s just from my own experience. I was amazed at the dedication of the staff when my granddad had to go into a care home shortly before he passed away. Lovely staff. He wasn’t always dressed in his own clothes though. Carelessness or a mistake? I don’t know. He was clean he was comfy. I bloody hope no one mistreated him. Such people are appalling.

I would hope, if anything comes from this, that a carers value is seen for what it is. It might then be funded better and be seen as a “proper” career, not looked down upon. And that sub par care would be correctly handled.

There needs to be a real attitude shake up in many across this country, but throwing furloughed people at it isn’t a solution.

Fruit picking can be good work. Talking to one of the chaps with an orchard locally his most productive workers will get £15 an hour 14 hours a day six days a week for the four months he keeps them.

That’s a pinch over £20k for working the season plus heavily subsidised accomodation, food, and travel, or £60k pro rata. They then take the rest of the year off, often to look after their children before returning the next season.

His workers do have a floor at minimum wage but the vast majority do better.

As @mathanxiety said earlier in this thread, care work is a genuine vacancy which should be paid work. It's not appropriate for furlough volunteers to go and do that work for free as that's depriving someone of a genuine opportunity for employment.

If the firm isn't able to find people to fill those vacancies then they need to think about why that is - is it lack of training? Is it being expected to travel between calls without being paid? Is it lack of PPE and safety equipment? Care is notorious for treating employees badly, taking advantage of their goodwill and not providing them with appropriate equipment to protect themselves from injury. I can't blame people for not wanting to do it.

I thought you generally had to live onsite.

Maybe care homes are one of many places of employment that first off, need adequate funding for PPE and decent pay, and second need a bloody bollocking and actual consequences for management who treat staff on the front line like shit. But that’s slightly steering from the point of this thread and is another long term issue this country needs to deal with.

I also don’t see how Furloughed workers being expected to do second jobs is ironic with Brexit. That’s essentially saying furloughed staff are the ones who voted for Brexit so can pick up the slack because they deserve it and those who voted remain are still going to work and don’t have a reason to pick fruit, because they voted remain so it’s not their job. Which is BS.

If the firm isn't able to find people to fill those vacancies then they need to think about why that is - is it lack of training? Is it being expected to travel between calls without being paid? Is it lack of PPE and safety equipment? Care is notorious for treating employees badly, taking advantage of their goodwill and not providing them with appropriate equipment to protect themselves from injury. I can't blame people for not wanting to do it.

Those are the reasons I left care in the first place. I didn't work in the community, but in homes, and I felt like I was up against a brick wall trying to care for people properly. Not just within the homes themselves but the wider network of services also hindered sometimes more than they helped.
Care is a business, and a business exists to make money. My personal view is that people should be paid, and paid better than they are, as well as having the equipment to do the job safely for them and those they care for, but it shouldn't be a money making enterprise.
Small homes, ime are much better at doing this, with less resources than large companies with multiple sites with more resources. Maybe because it's more personal to them, they're often owner managers and they are more involved than managers and owners in larger places. The smaller places tend to have more loyal staff, better food and care even if they haven't got the best decor or fancy brochures. Larger places have big fancy buildings and big well decorated rooms with en suites that give a wonderful impression but scratch the surface and it's rusty underneath. Their staffing is often a revolving door, food is reminiscent of school kitchens 30 years ago but worse and equipment not serviced or repaired.
I don't want to go back to it because I don't believe in what I was doing, I don't believe it was right.
I would, at the moment, I offered a few places I used to work that I'm available for bank shifts if they need staff because I have experience, but it would have to be unpaid as I can only volunteer under my furlough contract. All said thank you but they were OK for staff, and I have experience.
This is not the time to be training swathes of new staff, some of which have no interest in the job to start with and don't want to be there. It's not fruit picking, or moving stock around. It's looking after elderly and vulnerable people, and honestly they deserve more.

I thought the reason for furlough is there is no work in many sectors within lockdown.
bluebluezoo

The lockdown was imposed to minimise the risk of employees spreading the virus by going about their normal work in their workplaces, commuting on their normal buses or trains, going to conventions, taking clients or customers out to dinner, drinks, etc. Only essential facilities remain open.

Even so, some factories, bakeries, etc have been hit by spread of the virus in their facilities. A bakery near me is now shut for two weeks because an employee had to be lorried off to the hospital suffering from covid-19.

That’s essentially saying furloughed staff are the ones who voted for Brexit so can pick up the slack because they deserve it and those who voted remain are still going to work and don’t have a reason to pick fruit, because they voted remain so it’s not their job. Which is BS.

It's ironic because people wanted less immigrants so British people would have jobs.

Anyway, regardless of whether you voted brexit or not, the reality is the british public will have to start working in sectors which have traditionally been largely worked by immigrants (fruit picking, care, cleaning, factory work). Otherwise the UK will grind to a halt. As someone who has worked in all the above apart from fruit picking, I can say that the reason there as more immigrants in these jobs is because British people dont want to do them, and not because they only hire immigrants.
I really think the next few years is going to be eye opening for a lot of people when they realise that things start going very wrong as no one is working in these jobs.
If anything immigrants are preferable in a lot of these sectors because they get on with it and stay in these jobs, where as many of the british staff I've worked alongside have had very high turn overs in the same roles.

It's not a case of you voted so you must suffer and do the work. It's a case of brexit was voted for, therefore everyone is going to have to pick up the slack whether you voted for it or not.

I can say that the reason there as more immigrants in these jobs is because British people don't want to do them, and not because they only hire immigrants.

There have been quite high levels of employment. If there is a wider pool of jobs available then people will naturally become a bit more choosy about what they take on. This is not to say that every job on offer was a high quality job (e.g. zero hours contracts, gig economy). But for a lot of people if there were a few job options and fruit picking was one of them, then it's not surprising that they may have chosen a zero hours year-round contract in retail which averaged out at 30 hours a week, rather than highly seasonal and manual work which pays well but for only a part of the year.

But that dosent negate the fact that people now need to do jobs such as fruit picking as we cant rely on labour from other countries. People are out ragged that the government is suggesting people take on roles as fruit pickers while on furlough (rightly or wrongly), but if british people dont step up and do the jobs they dont want to who else is supposed to do it?
Yes it seems wrong to push people who have jobs, but due to the pandemic cant work into taking seasonal employment and a fruit picker, but I wonder how else do people think they are going to get people to do fruit and veg picking otherwise? It's a job which has always been open to the british public but has been traditionally been done by immigrant labour. I can see the point of being offered a contract between season fruit picking or all year retail why they may go for retail, but there are plenty of people who are on job seekers and able to work who are choosing to not accept jobs such as fruit picking even if they are unsuccessful getting roles elsewhere, and are choosing to not work claiming there are no jobs, when there are jobs, in factories, fruit picking and most manual labour professions. (Obvious I'm aware it may not be suitable for more elderly people, those with poor physical health, those with young children would be unable to travel to farms for the season), but that dosent make up all the current population who are looking for work and many would be able to fill these roles.

Unless British people step up we will be utterly without fruit and veg and have huge amount of rotted waste and farmers folding due to not being able to afford to run with such a huge loss of income.

I myself would take on seasonal work as a fruit picker if it wasnt for the fact I'm left in agony walking down the street and prior to lockdown was having intense physical rehab/physio for persist and agonising back/hip problems, but neither am I able to receive any form of government support and have been left without any income at the moment.

I'd happily do it but not for 14 hours a day, I am simply no longer capable of working that long. Put it up as a job share and I'm there.

But that dosent negate the fact that people now need to do jobs such as fruit picking as we cant rely on labour from other countries.

Lots of British people have applied for fruit picking jobs. There are numerous press stories talking about this.

People are out ragged that the government is suggesting people take on roles as fruit pickers while on furlough (rightly or wrongly), but if british people dont step up and do the jobs they dont want to who else is supposed to do it?

You're ignoring two things. Firstly furlough is supposed to be a temporary state. Those people are still employed, but are being kept at home because the businesses are closed. The Govt has stepped in to provide funding so that the firms don't go bust paying their wages whilst there's no income.

But business are starting to re-open - and the point of furlough is that it can be ended at short notice to bring those employees back into work. How exactly do you think this will work if someone's hundreds of miles away in a cabbage field? Farmers know this - which is why they would prefer people who have not been furloughed, because they need people for the full season rather than those who might need to disappear mid-shift at a moment's notice.

Yes it seems wrong to push people who have jobs, but due to the pandemic cant work into taking seasonal employment and a fruit picker, but I wonder how else do people think they are going to get people to do fruit and veg picking otherwise?

No need to push - they have already applied. If you look at a lot of the fruit timings the season hasn't really got going yet. But it's easier for the papers to write dire warnings about us all starving to death for a lack of strawberries, than report the actual facts - which is that thousands have applied. To the point where one farm has had to recruit someone just to manage all of the applications they have received (I posted a link to this story up-thread).

I can see the point of being offered a contract between season fruit picking or all year retail why they may go for retail, but there are plenty of people who are on job seekers and able to work who are choosing to not accept jobs such as fruit picking even if they are unsuccessful getting roles elsewhere, and are choosing to not work claiming there are no jobs, when there are jobs, in factories, fruit picking and most manual labour professions.

One question for you: under normal circumstances, there are very clear rules about job-hunting. If you cannot show that you have applied for roles which you could reasonably do (which for the able-bodied would include fruit picking) and that you are prepared to commute for up to 90 minutes each way (which would include any farms or orchards within that radius), then you are sanctioned. Which means that your benefits are cut or suspended. Do you honestly think that people choose not to apply for fruit picking jobs, and that the job centre somehow don't know about these vacancies, and nothing happens?

The majority of fruit (and veg) picking roles are taken up by immigrant labour for three reasons. Firstly they are prepared to travel away from home and live on-site in accommodation (such as bunks in caravans) which is provided by the farm. Secondly they are used to the work. There is skill and experience in being a good picker - working fast enough, cutting consistently, not getting injured and being able to keep up with the physical demands of the job. Therefore experience at the work will always be preferred to someone who has never done it before. Thirdly, as a result the experienced labour pool tends to be run as an organised gang by a gangmaster who will have a standing relationship with the farmer.

Unless British people step up we will be utterly without fruit and veg and have huge amount of rotted waste and farmers folding due to not being able to afford to run with such a huge loss of income.

Unless they do what they have just done and allow experienced fruit and veg pickers to travel over from Europe, as they do every year, to come and work for the season. If the UK wants to change this rule and only allow British citizens to take these jobs, the they will also need to provide for a support and transition period so that farmers can identify local labour, train those people and have them working to the required standards. The alternative is that your fruit and vegetable prices increase, because fewer items are being picked because the local labour is inexperienced and slower.

I myself would take on seasonal work as a fruit picker if it wasnt for the fact I'm left in agony walking down the street and prior to lockdown was having intense physical rehab/physio for persist and agonising back/hip problems, but neither am I able to receive any form of government support and have been left without any income at the moment.

I am sorry to hear that you are in pain and hope you recover soon. However your post does rather smack of 'other people should do this' safe in the knowledge that you would never be in line for that kind of work.

DD1's friend is a final year Agriculture student at Uni, has past experience on farms so driven tractors and trailers and has all the right licences for various farm jobs & has applied didn't get a place despite living within 2 miles of a fruit farm and 5 or 6 of another. Has been told to reapply in June.

I really think they should be using local people to pick fruit and not importing plane loads of foreigners while there are plenty of capable people sat on their backsides being paid to do nothing. I agree not everyone who is furloughed lives near a fruit farm but we really shouldn't be needing to import people. I'm sure there are plenty of students who'd be glad of the money too.

Lots of British people have applied for fruit picking jobs. There are numerous press stories talking about this.

I just looked this up. The alliance of ethical labour providers (one of the main contracters providing fruit pickers for farms) have since reported that out of 50,000 applications from British nationals, only 9000 people actually agreed to be interveiwed when offered. Then out of the 1000+ applicants offered roles, over 900 rejected the jobs, leaving just 112 actually taking up the offer.

Firstly furlough is supposed to be a temporary state. Those people are still employed, but are being kept at home because the businesses are closed. The Govt has stepped in to provide funding so that the firms don't go bust paying their wages whilst there's no income.

But business are starting to re-open - and the point of furlough is that it can be ended at short notice to bring those employees back into work. How exactly do you think this will work if someone's hundreds of miles away in a cabbage field? Farmers know this - which is why they would prefer people who have not been furloughed, because they need people for the full season rather than those who might need to disappear mid-shift at a moment's notice.

I agree with this. that furloughed workers in industries that are reopening are not the answer. But i think the governments approach either highlights their a) Utter incompetence, b) there worry that they wont be able to successfully mitigate the impact of Brexit that they are bulldosing towards.

No need to push - they have already applied.

From having a look online it seems to be the opposite, papers are going on about how the British are applying in droves for the roles rather then highlighting a potential shortage.

Concordia (a farm requitment company) have also stated that although people are applying, many are rejecting job offers in huge numbers due to requirments to work long days, full time, location of farms.

Another recruitment agency called Hops, have further stated that out of applications only approximately 9% are eligible to be offered the role due to stating they cant commit to 40 hour working week, not able to commit to the entire season.

Although they did comment there appreciation and thanks to all who applied.

One question for you: under normal circumstances, there are very clear rules about job-hunting. If you cannot show that you have applied for roles which you could reasonably do (which for the able-bodied would include fruit picking) and that you are prepared to commute for up to 90 minutes each way (which would include any farms or orchards within that radius), then you are sanctioned.

This has a lot of naivety. I grew up in very impoverished areas with a lot of friends receiving job seekers. Many of them were on job seekers for years unable to 'find' work, yet in the same area I was able to easily find factory work/manual labour through agencies etc, and as such have never used JSA myself. The job center simply does not have time to police if jobs are actually present, long as you evidence you have met your work commitments and applied for jobs, jobs a good'un. Much to my frustration many of the people i knew regularly applied for jobs they knew they wouldn't get as a way to not get sanctioned and continue receiving JSA. More frustratingly, more often then not the people i knew genuinely seeking work and trying to get off JSA got sanctioned more often due to finding a lack of jobs which they would be genuinely eligible for and often got sanctioned for not meeting there claimant agreement requirements. In many ways its a broken system and one which is unfortunately manipulated by the few which then cause awful vitriol to many JSA and benefit claimants who are genuinely trying to find work and survive.

The majority of fruit (and veg) picking roles are taken up by immigrant labour for three reasons. I agree with the three reasons you have stated above. But a lot of that comes down to they are willing to work any job long as it pays, and not refuse something because its 'not what they want to do'. I imagine the reluctance to hire British workers is also due to huge turnovers in unskilled British labour, which i imagine would be hugely disruptive to a farm to have to retain staff. Likewise immigrant workers will return each season resulting in less training and better skill set.

The alternative is that your fruit and vegetable prices increase, because fewer items are being picked because the local labour is inexperienced and slower.

If im honest I feel at least for the first few years, this will be ultimately inevitable. If nurses won't be eligible to come to the UK to work due to being below the 'skilled worker' wage cap that has been proposed, I highly doubt that seasonal labour workers will be able to. Unless ofc the gov decide to cherry pick what they allow, but then personally I think immigrant workers would be daft to come over as they would have very little in the way of protections and rights.

However your post does rather smack of 'other people should do this' safe in the knowledge that you would never be in line for that kind of work.

I actually would love to be able to work manual work again, specially now when things are so uncertain and we would really benefit from having the extra money (not eligible for benefits, our current income is less then £500 per month from my DH employer who have currently closed, and I was a bank contract worker not eligible for furlough), not eligible for job seekers or universal income as technically we have jobs, and dont have children. So i would quite happily have returned to manual labour if i was able to, and hopefully once i can start physical therapy again I will eventually be able to. I miss it hugely, and have spent most my adult life prior to returning to university to retrain in a profession, working manual labour in one form or another.

A local fruit farm has just put out an appeal for workers.

They have been brutally honest with the work- it’s very interesting.

They’ve had applications from people who think they can bring their kids...

They say there is a very small harvest window- it’s not PYO, it’s all in polytunnels and fruit must be picked at a certain stage of ripeness, so time is critical. Left a day too long and the shops win’t accept it..

They prefer live in workers as it can get very hot in the tunnels in summer, so they have to start early, often at 4.30-5 am. Bear in mind most farms are rural, there’s no public transport. In the current climate they don’t want lots of vehicles traipsing in and out every day, possibly bringing in CV.

@LittleFoxKit I agree with some of your points. I think it shines an interesting light on the availability of a labour pool - for example how many of those turning down the job offers are doing so because they don't want to live away from home? I don't think its unreasonable - especially if someone has younger children - that an individual might not want to spend a prolonged period of time living away. Likewise I can see how someone who has always done retail work in a clothing store might not want to spend 14 hours a day harvesting fruit in a red hot polytunnel. I suspect there will also be people in there who know their own limitations and that they won't be able to keep up with the physical demands of the job. I did fruit picking as a student - hard work but good fun. I very much doubt I'd have the stamina for it now.

As I said previously, in periods of high employment it's incredibly difficult to attract applications for 'unattractive' jobs unless they are really well paid or have amazing benefits to them. Farms also come under pressure from a cost perspective; supermarkets squeeze every penny of the margin, which means that farmers have to make sure they have the most cost effective and efficient workforce and minimal spoilage or downtime.

if there is a change in the labour pool (from overseas to local) then there will either need to be a managed transition period, or an acceptance that prices have to rise as a result of less supply whilst the local labour is recruited and trained. The discrepancy between volume of applications and suitable applicants just goes to show how 'unskilled' we have become in this particular area, because there is no working knowledge of what is actually involved in doing the job - whereas previously more people would have known someone who did it and therefore what the requirements were.

If employment opportunities become more scarce, and the economy contracts, and fruit/veg pickers are classed as unskilled labour and therefore barred to immigrants, then you will see a natural rise in a local workforce. What makes me really uncomfortable is the number of people who seem to think it's acceptable to insist that unemployed or furloughed workers should be forced into farm-working as part of some 'national effort'. As a PP has already said further back in the thread, it's telling that some people seem to be really uncomfortable that furloughed workers, especially those in lower paid or unskilled jobs, seem to be catching a break for a change.

I've just applied - hoping to hear from someone in due course.

People are out ragged that the government is suggesting people take on roles as fruit pickers while on furlough (rightly or wrongly), but if british people dont step up and do the jobs they dont want to who else is supposed to do it?

I have a feeling that your question should really read ' if british people dont step up and do the jobs they dont want to who else is supposed to do it while still guaranteeing farmers the same profit and guaranteeing the same unreasonably low price for fresh fruit and veg?

The truth is that fruit and veg cost what they do because farmers don't pay pickers a lot (and make a little back from the cost of labour by charging for the cost of accommodation from their earnings). Supermarkets and transport firms play a role in pricing too of course.

Your basic assumption is that 'someone else' is going to have to sacrifice in order to keep things exactly as they regardless of Brexit, and it's a flawed one.

Maybe the sacrifice will be cheap fresh fruit and veg, and those sacrificing will be the British public in general, instead of the poor who are apparently expected to do their duty, sacrifice family life for six months, sacrifice reliability of income (under current benefits rules), and sacrifice personal health and comfort to go out and do the work that keeps Britain's fruit bowls looking attractively full.

They’ve had applications from people who think they can bring their kids...

And what is the problem with that?
Surely the children could be left in the hedges.

But i think the governments approach either highlights their a) Utter incompetence, b) there worry that they wont be able to successfully mitigate the impact of Brexit that they are bulldosing towards.

Bingo!

If the general population of the UK were to be motivated to go out and pick fruit and veg, we would see evidence of that in their gardening habits. We would see back gardens given over at least partially to rows of potatoes, beans and onions, not a token strawberry tub on the patio. A fruit tree or two in the garden with no neighbourly rivalry on overhanging branches. Many people look miserable standing in those supermarket queues but the truth is the supermarkets have got the nation by the balls and in coming months that will become even more apparent than now.