AIBU to get a bit fucked off at having to protect the NHS?

[Santaclauswhosthat]

This is a healthcare system I've paid into all my life. I don't think everyone who works in it is a hero and the vast majority of them aren't underpaid. It's ranked 16th in the world and has the worst cancer outcomes for any developed country. It's not very good. Nonetheless it's the only healthcare system open to me right now. But I can't access it. My operation had been cancelled and I can't get a consultant appointment. The GPs aren't seeing patients face to face. I've already had one tumour removed that was on the turn. I'm worried that I may have another. I have no way of finding out if this is the case. A family member has already died of covid 19 after being denied treatment for three days during which repeated calls to the ambulance service were made whereupon his mother was told she should only ring again if his lips turned blue. He is dead. Right now. The NHS didn't protect him. It isn't protecting me either. What is the point of the NHS, exactly? Most clinics are closed or running at half mast. GPs aren't seeing anyone. NHS staff get shopping hours and free food and fuck knows what else and we are all dying protecting them.

Well, coming from a country where doctors' appointments are subsidised, but there is a charge, I do think that perhaps there is a case to be made for charging for appointments, to weed out those that are not necessarily requiring a doctor's time.

And then appointments can be made free of charge for children, up to X age (preferably school leaving age), and an eligibility card because of income, physical or mental circumstances, etc, can significantly reduce the charge, or make it free again.

But I find it really odd, and a tad uncomfortable, that we don't pay for GP's appointments. We have an income that means that we could, (and I feel, should). Of course, that means we're paying a truckload in tax, too, so I suppose we could say, well, we pays our taxes, we're due something back, aren't we? I'd rather not though. We do try to access healthcare as little as possible. When we've had to, gosh, the care and the compassion have been fantastic.

People who don’t have enough money for food, bills and rent don’t pay tax either quite possibly. The insurance scheme (not the USA model) could start at earnings where people pay grad tax. Around £25k? If people want a better health service we need to pay more!!!!

Older people paying insurance or a ring fenced NHS tax would be better too. This would spread the burden and if older people have a good pension and income, why not? They are the main users!

. Is it not just one factor amongst many?
It's relevant because it's the highest cost to the nhs, by quite a mile.

Xenia, to be fair, you are quite unusual in you decision not to use the nhs, so I don't think we could apply your circumstances to our nation.

You say that you'll deserve golden plated treatment in your older age from what you've paid in, but you really can't know how much you could end up costing the nhs. The fact your parents died in their 70s doesn't mean by far that you will especially if you've adopted a healthy lifestyle. You could live up to 100 with a chronic condition for 30 years. Some medicines for these conditions cost an absolute fortune.

Older people paying insurance or a ring fenced NHS tax would be better too. This would spread the burden and if older people have a good pension and income, why not? They are the main users!

You might want to just think that one through. Older people have a life time of paying tax for other people’s care behind them. Maternity care is paid for by people who don’t have children - maybe ring fenced tax for parents? How about education? You start down that ridiculous road and there’s no end to it.

Yes this never ending mantra of 'free at the point of use' is ridiculously pas it's sell-by date now. Other countries have vastly better outcomes and efficient systems. I have been treated in the French system and people do pay some charges but the difference in quality and outcomes is staggering
But the NHS here is like cult that has hypnotised people. It is not fit for purpose and the Gvt needs to have the cable to radically overhaul.

@CatteStreet and @bumblingbovine49, thank you for giving further details about the German healthcare system, v helpful.

mbosnz wouldn't work. You've already identified a handful of groups that would be exempt. Would that include the over 65's, over 75's to get free appointments too simply by virtue of age? Even if they could afford to pay? As a HCP in general practice, most of my patient says are elderly.
As per, you'd have the same squeezed middle subsidising everyone else.
And my MIl for example hasn't had a lifetime of paying tax. Like many women of her generation (not all) she hasn't worked or paid a penny in over fifty years.

Well, it does work. After a fashion. It's not perfect.

No, there is no exemption by virtue of age. There is exemption for chronic conditions though.

It does mean that there is more money going into the system than £0 as a result of appointments made and met.

But the NHS here is like cult that has hypnotised people. It is not fit for purpose and the Gvt needs to have the cable to radically overhaul.

@Stellamboscha, as I have repeatedly said on here, the Conservatives are showing no interest in discussing alternative European models. Around (can’t remember exact figure) 92 Conservative MPs have links with American for profit healthcare insurers, there are ministers in the cabinet who wrote a book, Britannia Unchained, recommending the American model and some experts say the 2012 Health and Social Care Act embedded even further privatisation into the NHS. And the smallest annual increases to NHS funding happened between 2010-2018 since NHS’s inception 75 years ago. And for the record I know Blair’s PFI was a disaster but Blair is gone. If our healthcare model is changed and we keep voting in Conservatives the model we are likely to have will be much closer to the American model which may provide great healthcare for the few but extremely costly to unaffordable for many.

Chronic conditions covers a wide ranging multitude of health issues. Most over 75's I see have at least one. This growing population already receive non means tested benefits. I wouldn't be happy to subsidise their GP appointments too. Certainly not if they can well afford them. Which millions can.

But their appointments are already free!

Where I come from, it's on the basis of prescriptions - so if you need more than ten per year, for example, prescriptions come free.

What about reducing those who get these things free, when they don't need to? For example, I have a relative who is a millionaire - the only thing they can't manage not to pay for is healthcare. They have to pay for GP's appointments, prescriptions (beyond what they've managed to wiggle out of), and have of necessity got private health care to ensure they can get what they want when they want for anything beyond GP, prescription, and emergency health care.

This growing population already receive non means tested benefits

I’m assuming by this you mean the state pension, for which a minimum number of years NI contributions are required. So clearly not a benefit in the sense you mean.

What non means tested benefits do the over 75’s get?

am probably one of the luckiest 50 something women in the UK

Xenia probably one of the most stupid if you've never had a smear test to.

And who do you think makes all the decisions regarding the NHS?

what I witness in the NHS and find horrifying is the layer of bullying, self-interested management who have proliferated over the past 10 years, they are indeed overpaid and also benefiting from the generous sick pay and pensions. Bullying, scheming types who have taken over the sitting ducks that caring HCPs and sick patients can be. If you are a frontline HCP you need time off when sick to protect your patients, the pension scheme wasn't even in deficit because life expectancy is not particularly long for those with a lifetime of emotional strain and unhealthy shift working. This is being changed by bloated management with an easy life spent chasing targets, with little empathy to worry about prematurely dead or injured patients and no strain on their bodies from physical shift work, plus some nice ego massages at the golf club, masonic meeting, local spa when you say you work for the NHS "oh how wonderful" - no it is not all of them but it is enough to make a difference, a bad difference. I've seen these people do the bidding of cost-cutting governments, circulating around healthcare conferences talking themselves and their Trusts up while things disintegrate back at the front.

Pr and Comms functions grow in healthcare structures, putting out propaganda and bent stats that a Communist State would be proud of.

Mr C-suite told he must ensure there are no people seen dying in tents in his area like got on telly from Italy. Mr C-suite happily agrees to collaborate with cancellation of all work other than Covid work. He's met his target while the pain and illness of the large cohort not treated are out of sight out of mind. No patients dying in tents = on message we are managing, we are not overwhelmed, believing their own lies like the best of the narcs pained women post about on the relationships threads. Meanwhile leaving frontline workers to take the flack while the c-suite are working from the comfort of their socially distanced offices.

There's the government who want to be seen to be doing good while not spending, there's the people doing the real work, then there's a destructive, insiduous layer inbetween that is causing so much damage.

What have the Tories got to do with this.

Under Labour my friend together with a lot of other nurses were made redundant.
Replaced by youngsters who were working for less than her salary.

Under Labour I was left in agony for 7 years for want of an £300 MRI.
They paid more out each month for my sick pay. Ended up paying for the MRI myself and all subsequent treatment.

Under Labour my grand father lost his life because a doctor couldn’t recognise the symptoms of a heart attack.

I could go on

This isn’t about the Tories. The NHS has always been like this. It has taken a crisis for people to see what they are really like

I hope everyone watched last night's Panorama and learned of how culpable the Tories are in the death of all those poor NHS workers.

@tryingtothinkoftoday in per capita terms the UK death rate is actually quite low 503 per million in Spain, 611 per million in Belgium, 311 in the UK.

We had to have austerity ecause Labour destroyed the economy AGAIN.

Sir Simon Stevens runs the NHS. A former Labour adviser. It is not run by the Government, whichever happens to be in power.

The bureaucratic waste is ridiculous. My local MH Trust has just published a 75 page equality report. Their staff still call patients dahlin and parents mum. Simply unable to treat users and carers as equal to staff.

Pr and Comms functions grow in healthcare structures, putting out propaganda and bent stats that a Communist State would be proud of Mr C-suite told he must ensure there are no people seen dying in tents in his area like got on telly from Italy. Mr C-suite happily agrees to collaborate with cancellation of all work other than Covid work. He's met his target while the pain and illness of the large cohort not treated are out of sight out of mind. No patients dying in tents = on message we are managing

That is a really interesting post @backtonormalname. The pivotal role of targets was analysed in the Francis Report. The NHS is the fifth largest employer on the planet. Wedged between the global mega Corp Walmart. And China's National Petroleum company. No doubt each and every bureaucrat in the organisation performs a vital role.....

@OhTheRoses "We had to have austerity ecause Labour destroyed the economy AGAIN."

Labour caused the global financial crisis? Or the US housing bubble?

What kind of an idiot are you? The uneducated kind or the "I've been living under a rock and wear a tin foil hat" kind?