To be astonished at how much debt nurses have to take on?

[ArgumentativeAardvaark]

Just reading this article in today’s Guardian about student nurses and debt www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/21/we-are-risking-our-lives-support-grows-to-cancel-student-nurses-debt?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

One of them is going to graduate with £48,000 of debt. I find that astonishing given the low pay that they receive once working- how can we possibly expect young people to take on that much debt to work for the NHS? Is that figure normal, or is she perhaps an unusual case?

That's awful. Surely it was far better before it was a degree subject, and they were effectively trained on the wards?

Isn't it the same with other courses though, about £10k a year in fees? Not all graduates go on to highly-paid jobs, many chose a subject and career they are interested in or enjoy rather than just chasing money.

That’s normal- that’s the debt every young person takes on when they go to university whether they study nursing or physics or English. There are plenty of people earning less in less stable careers with that volume of student debt.

That said many won’t ever pay it off. If you earn £28800 you pay back £16 a month!

The cohort graduating this year have been particularly badly hit. They are taking out loans for the £9k per year fees so already that's almost £30k before you add in maintenance loans - it's easy to see where the high debt is coming from. I do really feel for them.

@Thisismytimetoshine I disagree with that- there needs to be a standard of competence and it would limit postgraduate opportunities- many nurses take masters to progress to being specialists and advanced practitioners and they can’t do that without a degree!

The difference is fees for nurses, occupational therapists, midwives etc used to be paid for through NHS bursaries so they were effectively ‘free’ to study. However the current government stripped that so they have to pay over £9k each year- and work for no pay on the wards too!

Badly hit compared to other years on the same healthcare courses, I mean - I graduated last year and didn't have to pay any tuition fees, and got a full bursary for living costs including some for childcare. It's a big difference compared to the current third-years.

I think they should be written off after a certain amount of years service with the NHS.

It ,isn't the badly paid ,I was a staff Nurse for many years once I got to the top of my band I was earning over £2000/ month after tax although it was made up of basic pay and unsocial hours ,and of course there is career.progression for those who want it I think they have brought back the bursery ? Which admittedly has always been crap.

Presumably Scottish student nurses don’t take on this debt?

I would never have gone into nursing if I was going to leave with that much debt. And I'm a good nurse, actually now an Advanced Nurse Practitioner. I obviously did not go into nursing for the salary, but I wouldn't have chosen to start with that much debt I was unlikely to ever pay back and would have hanging over me for 20+ years.

And several of my colleagues agree, especially knowing what they know now about the career.

There should be some type of scheme where the nurses won't have to pay back their loan if they work in the NHS for 5 years or so.

It's just another form of tax many won't pay it back and many have gym memberships or mobile phone contracts which cost more per month. I'd rather have a degree than an iPhone. However I do think it should be written off if you contribute x amount of service to NHS, same with Dr's, social workers working for local authorities etc.

They haven't bought back the bursary. There is a new grant which can be applied for on top of student finance which they have called the new bursary. Students will still need to take loans for living expenses and course fees.

And doctors, dentists, teachers, paramedics, etc etc

All (?) graduate public service staff have to self fund in England

You could say the same for paramedics

Them poor fuckers also have no idea what they are picking up from who when on call outs, they are taking Covid patients to hospital.

A band 5 nurse in England starts on £24907 and it rises yearly with experience to £30615. Band 6 starts at £31365 and rises with experience to £37890. A band 7 starts on £38890 and rises with experience to £44503. I could go on. The average U.K. wage was £30353. Yes nursing is hard, but it in no way badly paid. There are people working just as hard for just as many hours for a lot less.

My wife has to pay over £200 a month for her nursing degree, she done her degree in her home country and is different to over here how they pay it

The difference with other uni courses is most students don’t have to work long shifts, sometimes nights, for absolutely no wage. Student nurses, midwives, paramedics, doctors etc are paying £9k a year to work. They should at least get minimum wage for all hours they contribute during placement.

Stopping the bursary was a huge mistake and very unfair. Student nurses have to work 12hr shifts as well as completing academic essays and achieving outcomes. They work 50% on the wards, the rest in uni. They don’t just sit in lecture halls for three years. Many of my students are older people, many with children, ideal candidates, but they are living hand to mouth.
And yes, nurses do need to achieve a degree, as do high level HCAs.

It's the same for vet students - 9k a year teaching + loan that doesn't even cover accommodation, let alone food etc for 5 years. It's a lot of debt.
Plus unpaid placements. Early starts and late finishes on dairy farms. Lambing through the night. On-call. Long hours.

I imagine for doctors its even worse. This is getting up to American levels of absurdity. The government likes forcing people to borrow to get degrees though, their ability to repay being based off the most optimistic prediction of their future earnings. And looking at America, we see how all this debt fuelled education just encourages colleges to keep raising prices extravagantly.

When I did my training, I got the bursary. I got paid about £100 a week. I lived in nurses accommodation, ran a car, and had enough money to live on. I left with about a £3000 overdraft which I paid off quickly. I was the only person in my family to go to university and I just wouldn’t have gone without the bursary. Getting rid of it has decimated our numbers. It’s simply not fair to ask someone to work shifts for the equivalent of one and a half years and pay for the privilege. On the election trial Boris was reordered as saying that they were bringing it back. But here we are months later, and it’s still not back. You can’t trust the stories with the NHS. Same old story.

Tories not Stories

It's the same for vet students - 9k a year teaching + loan that doesn't even cover accommodation, let alone food etc for 5 years. It's a lot of debt.

Most vets work for private companies though.

This isn’t new and one of the reasons they asked for a pay rise last year. The one all Tory MPs voted no against, and cheered when they won.