To be astonished at how much debt nurses have to take on?

[ArgumentativeAardvaark]

Just reading this article in today’s Guardian about student nurses and debt www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/21/we-are-risking-our-lives-support-grows-to-cancel-student-nurses-debt?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

One of them is going to graduate with £48,000 of debt. I find that astonishing given the low pay that they receive once working- how can we possibly expect young people to take on that much debt to work for the NHS? Is that figure normal, or is she perhaps an unusual case?

Thanks @BarbaraofSeville you’re right that I was taken in by that report to think that these are real liabilities, but it is as, as you say, shocking that people are allowing themselves to feel stressed by debt that isn’t real debt and maybe even paying it off when they don’t have to. I think many people have a generalised fear of being in debt.

I also think people see the number and as evidenced by this thread, say 'well the average is X so they aren't low paid at all!' But with that they refuse to understand what nursing entails.

I don't mean hard work; if that were the case shop assistants would be paid more than bankers. But I mean the responsibility. I started out as an ICU nurse. The level of knowledge required was immense. Much more than the £21,000 salary acknowledged. The stress and responsibility? 1 mistake - just 1, and someone dies. Every day.

For that, nursing is incredibly low paid.

This is true for all English graduates. I think repayments are 12% or earnings once you earn above a certain amount and they are written off after 30 years. I don’t agree with this - we all benefit from having graduates in society and unis should be funded by taxes not tuition fees.

I always find this an interesting question especially as I have two dcs who both graduated in the last couple of years with debts of about £50k.
My view is that if they never earn very much they won’t pay anything back, so what does it matter? If they earn a fabulous salary they will have to pay it all back. But isn’t that fair? Why should people on minimum wage pay tax so other people can go to university and earn a lot in the future.
So overall I think it’s the fairest way of funding university education.

I think it's unfair to make nurses do unpaid placements, they are actually paying for the priviledge of working for the NHS under the guise of training.

Placements should be paid at min wage, this is free labour and extornionate. I'm not saying they should be paid the same as when qualified, as clearly they need more supervision/will not have as much responsibility. But they should have some recompense for work on placements, or at the very least travel and subsistence.

@Thisismytimetoshine - please do not turn this into a degree / non degree debate.

@ArgumentativeAardvaark - Scottish students still get bursary and fees paid. But Scottish universities are losing funding because of this hence the massive influx of overseas students who basically fund the whole university through their fees.

It's utterly irrelevant how much the debt is. If a nurse averages 30k a year over their career they pay back about £25 a month in student loans. £300 a year. Over 30 years that's 9k. Then it gets written off. It's irrelevant whether the loan was 10k or 100k.

The issue is that nursing is terribly paid, not that they have student loans like everyone else.

I did a nursing degree and have never worked in the NHS post graduation as I was unwilling to accept the substandard pay. My student loan costs me £174 per month which I will definitely pay off.

I believe it should be waived for those who work for the NHS.

I am a final year student midwife. I had a baby and deferred for a couple of years so I still receive the bursary and have my tuition fees paid but the rest of my current cohort do not. In my opinion paying tuition fees is exploitative. Whether nursing or midwifery is well paid is not the issue. We work full time at the hospital, 37.5 hours a week, for months at a time. Less than half my time is spent in uni, the majority is spent working. And we are working. We are supposed to be supernumary but in practice we are not. Particularly in the 3rd year- we take patients, do the jobs that HCA’s do and keep the wards running when short staffed, while being distantly supervised, for 12.5 hour shifts. I am happy to do this hard work for free, as I am learning, but to pay for the privilege is an insult quite frankly and I would not have trained if I had to pay tuition fees, no way. We contribute a lot to the NHS and that is why we are now being asked to join the workforce, because they recognise the skills that we bring to the table.

My son who is 11 wants to be a dr. If he ever managed to get into medical school that would cost an absolute fortune. I will help pay for it but by help I mean scrape together what I can not 9 grand fees for 5 years plus living costs.
When I went to uni I took out loans. No family help and no grants but i also didnt have to pay fees.

@Fairyliz did they have to do hours and hours of placements as part of their course? Nightshifts, 12 hour day shifts, often bring an extra hand as well as being there purely for working? Other courses which have placements they are paid well.

I would not have trained if I had to pay tuition fees, no way.

Even though you only pay them back after earning a certain salary?

@ArgumentativeAardvaark yes, as I believe that charging students high fees to work extremely hard, full time, is exploitative and wrong. That’s just my opinion though. With the bursary/paid fee system we were students but also employees of the NHS, and recognised for our hard work with a free education

That’s normal. To be blunt the ones who can take on debt are lucky. I had to pay my university fees upfront. I’d much rather have taken out a student loan like the domestic students. Education is expensive, it’s only fair that those who benefit from it should pay for it but it’s also only fair that loss should be available to those that can’t pay upfront so that it doesn’t become the preserve of the children of the rich.

@Raver84 that’s not exactly a superstar salary in the legal world.

Imagine if a student works as a nurse for 20 years in the NHS then decides to open her own business and is very successful so has a high salary. After 20 years in the NHS she or he should not be paying back £50k for her nursing degree. They shouldn't have been charged to work in the first place.

@DownstairsMixUp yes I know, it was in response to a PP who said that every grad will have a similar debt so tough. I don't agree because the placements should not be done for free. The placements paid well was in relation to other uni students who whilst on sandwhich years etc recieved a full wage, for some that was nearing on £30k.

I recieved no wage whilst on my sandwich year, so not everyone does. I also won't be paid for teaching classes prior to qualifying, of which I will do a significant amount. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but others are affected in a similar way, not just nurses.

@Doggybiccys - Scottish Universities are not “losing funding because of this (the retention of student nurse bursaries).” Actually Scotland is training proportionally more nurses than in England.

A band 5 nurse in England starts on £24907 and it rises yearly with experience to £30615. Band 6 starts at £31365 and rises with experience to £37890. A band 7 starts on £38890 and rises with experience to £44503. I could go on. The average U.K. wage was £30353. Yes nursing is hard, but it in no way badly paid. There are people working just as hard for just as many hours for a lot less.
This

As a social work student I fully expect to graduate with approximately £70,000 worth of debt, it's a joke

Surely it was far better before it was a degree subject, and they were effectively trained on the wards?

I have several friends who trained "on the job" in the old way. They are all very scathing about the practical skills of the new "graduate" nurses, but then I suppose that's to be expected.

Even if it's true, they still shouldn't be saddled with massive debts, and they should be paid while they train (as should paramedics).

I saw adverts for PIP assessors the other day. They pay them up to £59k, that must be really tempting for nurses, physio, paramedics etc.

The difference with other uni courses is most students don’t have to work long shifts, sometimes nights, for absolutely no wage. Student nurses, midwives, paramedics, doctors etc are paying £9k a year to work. They should at least get minimum wage for all hours they contribute during placement

And because they have to do unpaid "work" while training, it makes it difficult for them to work part-time while studying. Students on other courses can supplement their student loans by taking part-time jobs.

This is not a debt. It’s a tax. A nurse starting on £25,000 and working full time and paying the grad tax all that time, will pay off around £10,000. Any part time working and non progression of salary, the amount reduces. After 30 years it’s written off. The MSE model assumes a £106,000 pa salary in 30 years time. This web site has the best calculator.

Nursing is far from being the worst paid degree. Doctors are in fact the best paid grads of all. They cannot have a job unless the economy funds them. They are not self funding. Other jobs do matter. They fund the bigger share of the nhs. I would also prefer carers to get more. They are really the forgotten people in the healthcare sector.