To think these toddler tantrums can’t be normal?

[Nosleeptoddler]

DS is 3.4. He has terrible tantrums. Every day, at least 3 - often up to 10+ on a bad day. At least 1 or 2 of them will go on for 45mins+ and involve screaming and rolling around in the floor. He is lucid enough to know he is tantrumming (he’ll often scream “I’M NOT SCREAMING”) but cannot seem to stop. He never hits or breaks anything it’s just screaming and throwing himself about.

This has been going on every single day since he turned 2. He (normally) goes to nursery 3 hours a day and is perfectly behaved there - it’s only at home that he tantrums.

I know that toddlers have tantrums, but this just seems so extreme and is ruining our family life (we have younger DD, 14mo). I have scoured lists of adhd/Asd signs and nothing seems to fit but I feel like something has to be going on, I read articles about when to be concerned and it says things like “if this is happening more than twice a week”. Twice a week! I’d be lucky if it happened less than twice a day!

AIBU to think there must be something going on?

Lizzie, me too! :o

I feel your pain. My dd is 3. She is well behaved for her childminder and at times the child of satan for myself and her daddy lol.

Pre lockdown she would have massive tantrums at home. We read up on this and spoke to our childminder and the thing is, they tend to make sure they try their hardest to behave for childminder/ nursery etc but at home they can be themselves, and all the overwhelming emotions they feel they can get out at home around those they trust the most.

You also need to consider the stress and anxiety the current lockdown will be causing. Your child doesnt understand what's going on and they're bound to be anxious. This leads to night time sleep regression, increased tantrums and even bed wetting etc.

Please don't be hard on yourselves. Just try to offer comfort and support at the moment. As hard as that is with a screaming toddler.

Oh I love that turn your back and start humming and singing until they are finished.

Honestly that is so funny. Spoken by someone who hasn't never, ever experienced a tantrum as epic as some parents have.

We have had smashed windows, broken furniture, destroyed bedrooms, hurt siblings, broken doors, broken toys.

Imaging humming away to that "have you finished yet darling?"

Hi OP! My daughter was like this. She had awful toddler tantrums and they peaked at around 3.5. She was extremely volatile around this age, kicking screaming tantrums and often hit me. She went to school when she was only 4 years and a week old so I was so so worried about how she would cope and we considered deferring. As it happened, her tantrums did gradually improve and since she turned 4 have been much much better. She is now 4.5. I think she has had maybe one tantrum this week. I can't remember the last time she hit me. Last year some time. She also often apologises afterwards now as she recognises she was out of order. I have tried talking to her about it but it seems like the red mist comes down and she just loses control.

She is now, I would say, a completely typical 4 year old. She has thrived at school and her behaviour there is excellent. She rarely causes us a problem. Unfortunately I now have a 2.5 year old starting with the same behaviour but this time I'm ready 😅

At 3 they are quite complicated little things really. My threenager has been quite challenging at times. She has always been quite even tempered but when she snaps, she snaps big. As a 1 year old she basically used to take herself off and lie down in child’s pose to calm herself down and she is still able to do that if she isn’t over tired or hungry. If she snaps, she becomes hysterical and just screams and screams. We’ve found the only way for her to get out of it is just to cuddle her, try and soothe her like you would a baby and get her to do deep breathing. There is no point talking to her, trying to reason with her etc. It just prologues it.

@Dontbitetheboob etc it is healthy to treat a child in a healthy manner - don’t give attention seeking behaviour the time of day. However I’m sure the OP is sensible enough to pursue their child’s behaviour further if there is a neurological problem, we can’t assume every child has adhd autism etc from the beginning - that would not be healthy

@Dayoutsoon It can be hard for a parent to recognize those 'neurological problems' early on though, particularly in an eldest child. I know I didn't until it became screamingly obvious, and I'd have considered myself to be fairly in tune with DC. To be honest, people telling me there wasn't a problem and that eveything was normal didn't help, as it made it easier to dismiss any niggling concerns. It was simply a situation completely outside my experience and I wasn't prepared for it.

The reality is, statistically, it is more likely that OP has a neurotypical wilful tantrummy toddler, albeit at the difficult end of the range, than an atypical child who will turn out to have an ASD.

I would say do a month of trying normal approaches, if they make no difference or make it worse, then perhaps time to try approaches suited to a child with sensory needs.

My DS has to be 1st down the stairs now, that’s how I get him out of bed for school. He’s 9 and has ASD.

Thank you all - a lot of food for thought there.

@LizzieAnt that’s exactly it - I have this niggling sense that something isn’t exactly right, especially when I compare him to my younger daughter. But if I go and look at any of the sensory lists (like the one linked up above) he doesn’t really tick any of those boxes. He happily socialises and engages in activities at nursery, doesn’t have issues with loud noises (other than annoying ones), doesn’t not like being dressed etc. Crawled at 6mo, walked at just shy of a year, is incredibly coordinated and strong. There is nothing I can put my finger on.

@BertieBotts your post resonated and I practised basically attachment parenting when he was sub 2 for exactly these reasons - he just wasnt the kind of young toddler you could, for example, ever just put down in his cot and walk away. My daughter on the other hand - easy.

My eldest DC is much more badly behaved/prone to crying for no reason if blood sugar is low. We always give breakfast by 730 if DC are up at 7. It makes a lot of difference. I’m the same so we knew what to look out for!

There's a huge difference between a tantrum which will stop if the desired thing is achieved and a sensory meltdown which means the child is overloaded and literally cannot cope.

This - but also lots of neurotypical children will not have great emotional regulation at 3 years old so even without any sensory issues the pressure pf a day at nursery or the normal disappointments and frustrations of every day life can overwhelm them. They need the help of a calm adult who can help them reengage their higher level functioning brain.

These are attention-seeking strops.

Ignore all of it completely, other than to tell him to stop making that noise. Leave him to it. When he finds out that all his efforts are not working, it will stop.

Give him attention only when he is behaving nicely, and reward the good behaviour.

@TudorRoses
"These are attention-seeking strops".
Yes, that's what I was told too by well-meaning people. Unfortunately, in the case of my particular DC, it was complete nonsense. There's isn't a one solution fits all, I'm afraid.

If he manages well at nursery then it suggests its behaviour related.
I'd offer a forced choice where possible to give him control, would you like a spoon or fork. Would you you like a yoghurt or fruit.
But I'd balance that with a star chart for behaviour, only positive stuff. Two stars for doing what was asked, two stars for having a positive hour/morning etc.
And if he has a tantrum I'd get your dd and move rooms, his shouting is giving you a headache so he can come play when he's finished and wants a hug. If you stay you end up still giving attention.

@TudorRoses

But not all tantrums are attention seeking or manipulative, especially in younger kids. (It's usually easy to tell the difference - kids aren't great actors). If it's a genuine meltdown the kid needs help to calm down - ignoring doesn't help.

My DD was exactly like this and I was sure there was something very 'wrong' with her. She's 6 now and can still have huge.m outbursts but they're more predictable and much easier to nip in the bud.

She only has them with us, never at school or at friends houses.

When she was a toddler I was at my wits end but she's grown into the sweetest, happiest 6 year old and really I think it was just the passing of time that eases the problems. Hang in there.

Have you looked at extrinsic rewards vs instrinsic rewards? Reward charts etc are extrinsic rewards and don't work for don't children/people. Instrinsic rewards is the sense of accomplishment and pride in what you have achieved. My ds couldn't couldn't give a monkeys about a sticker chart but sure as hell likes being independent and doing things for himself whenever possible and safe. I think it's also about emphasising the trying rather than the result. Sarah ockwell Smith explains this well in her publications and I'm sure there are lots of others resources too.

Sorry, @TudorRoses, I probably came accross a bit harshly. Letting my emotions get the better of me! I spent years being told that DC's behaviour was because I was spoiling him or didn't discipline him enough, or correctly etc. Lots of kind, well meaning advice from loving grandparents and friends. I wish I had ignored it all, and that I knew then what I know now. Of course, this is the OP's child we're talking about and I sincerely hope he doesn't have the problems my child faced and still faces. But yes, one solution doesn't fit all. I really wish sometimes that I could go back in time with the knowledge I now have. OP, there are some great resources mentioned upthread. Read them, investigate, and trust your instincts. That said, I do hope it's just a phase and he'll develop the resilance to cope better as he gets older.

BertieBotts Your posts are brilliant. Thank you.

OP: my son is very similar - if it helps, the tantrums / meltdowns (I classed them as meltdowns, because he couldn't be distracted out of them) have subsided now (he is 6). He started having meltdowns at about 10 months old - always connected with food or sleep. Every meal time was a 45 minute meltdown, and if you accidentally woke him up, that would send him straight into one. It was exhausting. He still gets "stuck" sometimes - it's the only way I can describe it. He gets caught on an idea, and you can't get him out of it. So, he'll be screaming about something, and you are trying to explain why it isn't the way he thinks it is, but he is so emotional that he can't understand even simple explanations. Another one can be of the "I want a sandwich", "I'm sorry, we don't have any bread.", "I WANT A SANDWICH!" (repeat ad nauseum) variety. Which might be understandable at 3, but not at 6.

These days, I can help him through his "moments". Just help him slowly process those emotions, without "giving in" to his demands. But yes, 3 was hard. You know him best - you know whether he is "trying it on" or not. My son definitely wasn't, and is slowly getting better at managing his emotions. I think a tough love approach would have been damaging to him.

*resilience

Hi OP, that sounds very tough. My DS is 4.3 and very similar to how visionquest describes her DS. He's the first/only grandchild until DS2 came along a year ago and is used to being the apple of everyone's eye and lots of 1-2-1 time.

He is much better now at this age, although he's not been great the last few days, but we all have a lot to deal with at the moment!

Things that work/worked for us and some have been mentioned:

• how to talk so little kids listen. It feels like a lot of effort at the start as I completely changed how I parent, but it does start to come naturally
• the ignore bad/praise good where possible. I do actually do the back turning, continue what I was doing whilst humming etc, and it's usually effective. More so if it's just me and the DCs in the house, if DH is also here DS often goes and tells on me to DH eg mummy is being unkind to me! Which proves a lot of his outbursts are for attention
• reward charts, your DS clearly responds well so keep on using them. Eventually you won't have to for whichever behaviour, we used one for getting dressed in the mornings on and off for nearly a year, and i think it's finally clicked as although he's still sometimes reluctant, we never have tantrums over it. We still use charts for other behaviours we want to encourage.
• time outs didn't work for my DS, so I stopped using them which I think has helped him. Control is often driven by anxiety, and time outs can make anxiety worse

Also agree with PP that 3 is a horrible age. 4 is much better! Don't jump to conclusions that there is something "wrong" with him as that's what I did, I was actually suffering with terrible post natal anxiety and started taking ADs end of last year which have helped so much. I still have my moments of thinking something might be "wrong", but if there is, it's so subtle at the moment. All you can do is monitor. Some children are just more challenging than others, I know I was as a child.

I would remove the child for a set time, out of sight and a naughty seat
Our childcare suggested this as a way to discourage bad behaviour
He may fight you but stick with it.
Bedtime I have no answer it is a ongoing battle
I stopped turning into some of the nonsense and see how that goes, does he interrupt any phone calls and conversations? I stop him and say I am talking you need to stop,be firm.

3 years olds are lovely Interesting and fun
How we deal with the tantrums is yet to be solved!

Distractions, stickers, reward chart, praise for the good stuff.
I would enforce if you scream you are on a time out which means in a open door room close but out of sight until you calm down.
Bedtime before 9pm I am looking forward too!

I had the "tantrummy" type of toddler from 10 months when he realised that "no" meant that he wasn't going to get his own way and we're still going at 9. He got his high functioning ASD diagnosis at 8 following refferal at 7 after a particularly torrid summer of meltdowns in the aftermath of SATs.

Thinking back to when he was 3, our signs with the benefit of hindsight were:
Speech delay. He said enough words to make his point. He did not waste words on sentences and grammar. SALT intervention was required at 3.5.
Masking through nursery. There was one day that the nursery workers were incredulous that he'd had a tantrum as it was so unusual. He barely stopped at home.
Unusually long attention span for anything of interest. At 4 he could sit and build a Lego vehicle from a kit.
Perfectionist. Boy did I know it if there were the wrong numbers or angle of cars on the car-transporter-steam-train which I had to draw on the back of the Morrisons cafe reciept.
Sensory preferences for particular types of clothes/ fabrics
Transitions. Getting out of the house was an epic missiòn. It still had its moments. Frequently. Getting dressed, toothbrushing. Sigh.
Not fussed about other children. Accepted other children joining with what he likes, but does not gravitate towards others. Was about 6 when clear friendships developed. Reported more about annoying children than ones he liked!
Sensory stimulation, headbutting the floor, running into walls, biting.

Hunger/ tiredness/ thirst does not help and he's not great at self regulation for that.

I'm not saying what is/ isn't normal development. DS was just very intense and got stuck into phases more than normal rather than being obviously neuro diverse. We'd get better phases where his ability to cope with the world caught up (age 4) then tougher phases where expectations increased (age 5, being at school), oh and 2, with the toll of my pregnancy and a new baby was nuclear. It's taken many years for DS to stand out from what is developmentally normal (and even then he can mask and we pay later)
What ever is at play, it is worth changing tack and trying ASD friendly methods.

Thank you all

(I love the sound of the “reward shop” to the PP who suggested it!)

Again, I look at bogroll’s list and none of it applies to DS except for the not tantrumming at nursery and the getting dressed - but don’t think either of those are unusual. Hmmm.

Anyway lots of things to try so thank you all, I will see how we go!