To think these toddler tantrums can’t be normal?

[Nosleeptoddler]

DS is 3.4. He has terrible tantrums. Every day, at least 3 - often up to 10+ on a bad day. At least 1 or 2 of them will go on for 45mins+ and involve screaming and rolling around in the floor. He is lucid enough to know he is tantrumming (he’ll often scream “I’M NOT SCREAMING”) but cannot seem to stop. He never hits or breaks anything it’s just screaming and throwing himself about.

This has been going on every single day since he turned 2. He (normally) goes to nursery 3 hours a day and is perfectly behaved there - it’s only at home that he tantrums.

I know that toddlers have tantrums, but this just seems so extreme and is ruining our family life (we have younger DD, 14mo). I have scoured lists of adhd/Asd signs and nothing seems to fit but I feel like something has to be going on, I read articles about when to be concerned and it says things like “if this is happening more than twice a week”. Twice a week! I’d be lucky if it happened less than twice a day!

AIBU to think there must be something going on?

I would try the behavioural things but there’s definitely some rigidity in his expectations which may be a trait of ASC. All toddlers, especially when tired, hungry out of sorts can tantrum but the frequency and length does seem to be an outlier (lots of kids with ASC are ok at school but not at home and nurseries can be very ordered with a clear ‘road map’ to get through the session).

Have you tried a road map for his day at home - you can even put some pictures up in a ‘timetable’ so he knows what is coming each day. So his morning is get up, say hello to his sister (don’t need to make her hug), down for breakfast etc

Might be screen time in there but very ordered to do something specific.

I think you have to be careful not to reward a tantrum in any way. Whether that's attention, compensation for guilt, even being regarded as special (especially awful!).

You should not be the one hiding away in your room! He should go to his room. Take away the audience. Although he will probably trash it so remove anything you care about.

It does sound horrible for you all and I think you need to try strategies for 4 weeks each and see what helps.

There's no magic bullet but they will naturally resolve as he goes back to school full time.

Don’t try and talk him down or distract him. Acknowledge that he’s really angry/sad etc about XYZ and either see if there’s something you can do to fix the problem together or explain why XYZ can’t happen at the moment. He’s not tantruming because he’s badly behaved, he’s doing it because he’s 3. If he’s not receptive to you being near him the narrate that then tell him where to find you when he’s ready. If you tell him to basically deal with it himself and to speak to you when he’s stopped screaming, you’re rejecting him when he’s upset and needing guidance and teaching him that showing feelings is a bad idea. There will be countless people telling you not to reward his “bad behaviour” by speaking to him but that won’t help. He’s tantruming because he’s upset not because he’s some evil, manipulative horrible child. It’s not bad behaviour, he’s expressing his feelings the only way he can. Teach him another way to get those feelings out and he’ll stop tantruming.

Thank you all. I am not sure how to make sense of all of the advice (don’t reward him with your presence vs stay with him and speak calmly) but will try!

We do try to give him as many options as he is allowed but sometimes it’s not practical eg this morning - baby crying for milk, him wanting to “be the leader” but refusing to go down the stairs. We just can’t have a 20-30 min stand off everytime we need to do something.

Right am about to go back down there and see what happens...!

You could try strategies that would help an autistic dc. These strategies can be helpful to all children. Telling him in advance what is going to happen could help eg when you all went down the stairs. Your dc expected to go first, so discussing it before you go would perhaps help. Visual timetables help. Always telling him in advance what is going to happen so he is not expecting something different.

Sounds like a sensory issue, which can be part of ASD or ADHD but can also just be separate.

What you're describing is dysregulation, which means that he cannot naturally balance experiences he finds stressful with calming stimulus. That usually means that either this child is encountering more than usual that he finds stressful (where the sensory issues come in - assuming you haven't left out any whoppers like your DH is a violent alcoholic or something!) and/or doesn't have the tools/skills to self-regulate, or use parental input appropriately to help him regulate. Most likely both. That is why he cannot regulate his emotions or reactions and has such extreme responses several times a day.

Of course, it's totally normal for a 3yo to be partially unable to regulate their emotions and reactions - but to the extent you describe, and with the triggers you describe I think it probably is worth looking into. I didn't really understand this completely until DS1 (who struggles with all of this) was about 11, and his behaviour was unmanageable at 3. I now have a 19 month old and I'm astonished because his toddler behaviour is so completely different to DS1. For example, DS2 will sometimes display tantrum behaviour and you will catch him checking to see if you're watching him. He'll put on a crying performance, but forget to change his face so he still looks happy (and be able to switch it on and off at will to see what happens). Or he'll fall over and you'll see him actually take some deep breaths and then carry on as though he doesn't want to waste time being upset. When he was learning to crawl, he would rage with the effort he was making, but make a clear choice to continue despite that. If he knows something isn't allowed/approved of, you can see him thinking about it and deciding whether to do it or not, and fairly often he decides not. Of course, there are things which upset him, frustration he can't get past, incredibly tempting forbidden things and other emotional overload moments, he is a toddler after all, but there's a clear difference between these and the times where he is actually showing signs of being able to regulate his own behaviour to an extent. Obviously not very much, he is only little, but it is there and this is quite amazing to me, because I just assumed those were skills which developed later.

DS1 was nothing like any of those - he was regularly inconsolable, but I had no trouble following the attachment/gentle parenting advice to treat all tantrums as real and significant feelings because to him they absolutely were! I have no doubt that he wasn't being manipulative - he genuinely did find everything very overwhelming as a toddler. In fact, I was always a bit sceptical of people who claimed toddlers could be manipulative, and secretly thought they weren't being very empathetic I had nothing to compare DS1 to, so no idea that he wasn't typical. I just thought his difficult behaviour was either me being crap, typical parenting advice being unempathetic, and so on.

I'd recommend a few resources to you:

On skills vs capacity:

The Explosive Child - and possibly Dr. Greene's newer book as well. This explains the skills vs capacity issue well. Dr. Greene has a website but I find it a bit confusing without the info in the book, it works well as a companion, though.

The Whole Brain Child/No Drama Discipline - just a brilliant primer to the skills vs capacity idea, v practical as well and suitable for your age range. Probably more universal than Explosive Child.

Smart But Scattered - he's a bit young for this to be relevant yet, but it's aimed at ages 4-14, so still worth a read. The best practical guide to improving the skills which are lagging (though it might be a bit advanced as yet.)

On sensory issues:

Too Fast, Too Bright, Too Loud, Too Tight - great book about sensory processing difficulties, explains how different sensory inputs affect somebody who struggles with them in comparison to how most people experience them.

The Highly Sensitive Child - not read this one, but it is meant to be good and along similar lines although I think Too Fast... is a bit more specific whereas HSC is a bit wishy-washy (but good and affirmative if you're looking for support). There is a quiz on the HSC website you can do for free.

On discipline/handling behaviour:

Janet Lansbury's RIE approach (website/book/podcasts) - good because children with these kinds of issues do not tend to respond well to typical parenting methods relying on sanctions and rewards to motivate behaviour - this tends to be overwhelming to them and/or if they don't have the skills, they can't do what you are asking anyway. However IME gentle parenting/attachment parenting is a bit too conflict avoidant, because these children need clear guidance and actually an overly conflict-avoidant approach can conversely be more stressful for them because it isn't always clear what your expectations are.

How to Talk.../How to Talk so Little Kids... - both good. I think the Little Kids one is probably slightly better at this age, it's also a bit more up to date although the books are extremely similar. So if you want the original, go for that. However, if you struggle to give boundaries or are a bit conflict avoidant by nature, go with Janet first, and this when you've got a handle on that.

Many of the above also have several websites/support pages on Facebook/in-depth reviews on the web, so if you don't want to dive in and buy a book, you can find an incredible amount of resources online.

OP please don't jump to the ASD etc conclusion as so many are suggesting on here.

When I came here repeatedly for help for my eldest two when they were little, that's what got suggested to me and it caused a lot of worry.

The only diagnoses my kids have is - they were 3.

That's all it was. It's hard being 3! It's hard being a parent of a 3 year old.

Have you tried walking away and not reacting at all. Just watch from a distance to ensure he is safe. Don't even discuss afterwards. Totally ignore for at least 2 weeks.

It may demonstrate whether his tantrums are attention seeking behaviour or genuine sensory overload for him.

My son was awful from about 2.5 - 4yrs old. He was really volatile, numerous tantrums every day, screaming, kicking walls, slamming doors, launching toys across the room etc. His outbursts didn't go on for very long, but they were intense and relentless in frequency.

Anything and everything set him off. It was an incredibly stressful time, we had some very dark days and I also thought there must be something else going on with him.

However, fast forward to now, he is five and has mostly grown out of it. He is still quite emotional and sensitive, but it's like he has learned how to better deal with his emotions. Things will still set him off, but we can reason with him and talk him out of it very quickly and the violent outbursts have stopped.

What worked well for us was asking him why he was so upset rather than really telling him off for his outbursts. Don't get me wrong, I definitely lost my shit on many occasions but what I learned from that was that it just exacerbated his behaviour even more.

Going with a slightly softer approach actually worked far better, whilst still being firm and reinforcing the boundaries. But to be honest it just took time and a LOT of patience (and tears on my part!)

I would keep an ABC chart so see if there is a pattern and a trigger. Sometimes, these things only become obvious when you write it down/keep track.

If he is trantrumming (as opposed to having a meltdown), then I guess he may be trantrumming because he wants something?

if so, how do you respond? Do you give in eventually?

DD has autism (different, I know) and she used to tantrum when she wanted things. We eventually ignored it - initially, the trantrums got worse (a lot) as DD was used to getting what she wanted by trantrumming so she just tantrummed longer. Only once she realised that her outbursts would not get her what she needs, they reduced. It wasn't quick either but it was the only thing that worked for us.

Use a naughty corner method?

The idea about "not rewarding a tantrum" isn't appropriate if you are sure it is a meltdown (overspill of feelings) and not a manipulative attempt to get what he wants by making your environment unpleasant.

You will get conflicting advice because some people assume all tantrum type behaviour is the same, one way or another (As I said, even I thought this when DS1 was younger.) IME it is important to recognise the difference between a tantrum where he is trying things to gain a result (and even then the most effective way to deal with it is to make sure it doesn't get a result, completely outside of whether you are sympathetic/neutral/disapproving of the tantrum itself) or a tantrum where he is overwhelmed by feelings he can't control, which is generally the result of lacking skills or capacity to cope with a situation. Can be age appropriate, or a sign of a delay in skill development.

My niece was like this - I find it's easy from the outside looking in, but my BIL and SIL used to try to calm her down and and then one of them would take her off and talk her down.

It was fairly obvious they were just reinforcing the tantrum-ing behaviour, every time she started one or the other of them would basically giver her one-on-one attention until she calmed down....it also meant she got "asked" before many decisions just in case to actively try to avoid a tantrum. (They were , but effectively made her the leader in many small decisions).

For them it was sorted when they had a third child, who was exactly the same, and when both kicked off, particularly if only one parent was there it forced them just to put them in their bedrooms until they calmed down. They also had to stop asking them about small decisions as if both (say) wanted to walk downstairs first it was a massive problem!

I'd suggest you have a safe space (bedroom?) where you put him and ignore as best you can until he calms.
Also stop giving him options as it means he thinks he can choose what you do. Just do the normal toddler things like "blue trousers or green?" to stop general meltdowns.

I would turn my back and ignore and start humming or singing, doing dishes etc as if you can’t hear. Ocassionally saying “let me know when your finished and sitting down I have something to talk to you about” then if he has finished and sat down just talk about anything but ignore the tantrum. Worth a few try’s x x x

I think we’re quick to assume there’s more complex problem than a straightforward behavioural issue. If we’re wondering that, it changes how we respond. The bright child knows this and uses it.
Children need explicit boundaries and not for poor behaviour to be rewarded. Reward the good every time. He seems to be amenable to reward.
Why are you watching him having a tantrum? As soon as it starts, don’t cajole or try to distract. Certainly don’t let him scream in your face. Walk away. Right away. Go downstairs and do something nice that he’ll want to be part of. Ignore his tantrum. Then once he’s down just carry on as normal, no lengthy discussion or analysis but more, “Do you want milk or water to drink?”. Don’t engage about the tantrum at all.
Try and catch him being good. Offer him control at a reasonable level - some choices but not everything he wants to appease.
Have a giant jar with counters/ buttons he can collect and post to fill the jar. Give counters regularly for eating nicely, sharing, waiting patiently etc. Tell him why he has the counter specifically.Not for being a good boy but for sitting quietly whilst you put his sisters coat on etc.
Every so often set up a rewards shop and let him ‘buy’ a reward with his counters. Teaches maths as well as letting him see good behaviour pays. Small rewards that are tangible or experiences - a tub of bubbles not a trampoline. A bicycle ride with daddy not Disneyland. Try and think what small items he’d really like and have those on display in the reward shop. Explain first sign of a tantrum because he doesn’t have enough for everything means the shop closes without a purchase and he waits a week or two days for it to reopen.
Try and make it fun and special- a proper shop feeling out of a garden window, a table with a tablecloth and price labels etc.

Please note by saying "Sensory issues" or "Delay in skill development" I am not suggesting the OP's son does have issues such as ASD/ADHD, just pointing out that although these things are often associated with diagnoses, many many children have struggles which are unrelated to any diagnosis, and are just caused by a slight mismatch - it often happens when they are ahead in some other area, which considering the OP mentioned he is ahead in verbal development doesn't seem unlikely.

The child struggles because two parts of their processing are out of step - they perceive everything but don't have the tools to cope with it. Like how an early walker doesn't have the sense to avoid danger and often gains a reputation as a "daredevil", compared to a sibling who is perhaps more cautious and doesn't attempt things until they are very sure. It's all normal and the resources suggested aren't about labelling or stigmatising, just helping child and parent to understand each other and so smoothing the journey. I would have had a much better time, I think, and DS1 too, if I had understood when he was 3 what I understand now about difficult behaviour. I was part way there, but not completely.

Also mine still insists that he is first down the stairs or first out of the car.

Most of the time I will indulge him but I'm always pretty brisk/blunt so I'll say "if you want to be first down the stairs go now, hurry up" and if he fannys around, I just go past him and then when he starts moaning (used to be a tantrum) I just very bluntly explain why I went down the stairs and then ignore if he continues to whinge about it.

I definitely think that with my son he likes to have an element of control and be the leader, that just comes naturally to him and that is what caused a lot of the outbursts when he was younger.

We've had to teach him that actually, no, you're not in charge around here and that took a LONG time and is still something we're reinforcing now! We locked horns a lot when he was younger as he wasn't a naturally submissive/compliant type of child, much like your son! It's a real slog but I do think he will come out the other side of this in a year or so.

Make sure the tantrum doesn't achieve anything. Attention, you not giving the younger one your time etc.

Then try and find acceptable ways for him to feel in control of reasonable parts of his life.

And work on the sleep. DS is the same age and tiredness always results in way more tantrums.

Hi OP, you have my sympathies. It's hard to say whether he'll grow out of it as others have mentioned, or whether there are some underlying issues. I would try to investigate more closely in case it's the latter. My own child has an asd diagnosis which wouldn't have been picked up initially in school as behavior was quiet and 'good' there, but DC was, in fact, struggling to keep up. I'd ask the nursery again about how he's getting on there as, in my experience, being well behaved doesn't necessarily mean he's not having problems. Does he interact well with the other children? Does he get happily involved in activities, or does he hang back and prefer to do his own thing? Another factor that I missed early on was very suble differences in movement. My DC didn't crawl, which is sometimes - not always of course - a warning sign, though I didn't know it then. DC was walking by 11 months, but was later diagnosed with dyspraxia/DCD aged 6. Movement issues are often associated with asd etc, although again obviously not in all cases. Wishing you and your family the very best.

I have always called this the egg shell age. It does go but will appear again as a teen.

All my younger ones have been through this stage. I always dealt with it by getting my ironing board out sounds daft I know but I would then start to iron. By concentrating on the ironing my focus was away from the tantrum and it honestly did work for me. I got a job done that needed doing and I found the tantrum was soon over. As I was ironing I would say. Could you pass me that item or could you help me fold. Admittly at first the screaming drowned out my talking but it would soon die down and they would help.
If I didn’t have ironing I would do another chore. One of my DC was honestly the loudest screaming ever and literally it gave me a head ache. But it did work and the tantrums never lasted very long. Good luck. 👍

I agree with everything Bertie says. My DD had horrific tantrums from age 15 months. Everyone told me to ignore them and they would stop. People suggested reward charts etc. None of this worked, because she was having genuine meltdowns, not tantrums. She wasn't in control of her behaviour. She needed far more understanding and reassurance then I gave her, and I actually feel really awful at the way I handled it.

@BertieBotts
Your advice is brilliant. I really wish I had received advice like that when my DC was 3 and I was out of my depth!

Congratulations you have a strong willed child! 🍷

This sounds horribly like DD. She is particularly difficult at the moment. We have found time out and the naughty step and deep and serious consequences (loss of screen time/ chocolate eggs/ whatever she’s desperate for) very helpful.

Obviously there is a balance to be had. I try to be authoritative rather than authoritarian. If she’s having a tantrum about nothing then I leave her to it. She’s taking to dramatically going to her room in a huff if she doesn’t get her own way. I leave her to it. If she hits, spits or hurts me then she gets a naughty step.

Mine and DHs mantra is ‘we do not negotiate with terrorists’. Reasonable requests are usually granted but she had a 20 minute bedtime tantrum when I couldn’t find a specific cup last night. Obviously she just had to get over it.

Also, I find it effective to let’s her burn her anger out first and then have a conversation about her feelings. Don’t give the naughty bit attention. Save it for the apology and talking through the emotions and coping strategies.

There's a huge difference between a tantrum which will stop if the desired thing is achieved and a sensory meltdown which means the child is overloaded and literally cannot cope.

Have a read through this leaflet, does anything in it resemble your son's behaviour?
www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/social-care/disabilities/docs/young-people/Making%20Sense%20of%20Sensory%20Behaviour.pdf?