To not want schools to give up summer holidays

[littleblackdress04]

Just read in papers that it’s been proposed that kids go back to school in July/ August

I think this is a rubbish idea - if it’s going to be that long then just let them have a ‘normal’ summer and go back in September.

Kids have been cooped up because of this- I’d want to take mine to the hills, go camping & let them have some freedom. Then start school in September. This isn’t a holiday for them - it’s a horrible stressful period of being cooped up & not being able to live their normal lives.

While school gives a structure and is important, so are proper periods of holiday.

I’m really against the idea but aibu? Be interested to hear other thoughts. I’ve not been particularly worried about the kids education- they will catch up in time and it will be fine

Musicians Union -

"If you are a full-time employed teacher–for example a classroom teacher–you will get paid leave in the school holidays, so you won’t have additional holiday pay. Part-time classroom teachers are usually treated similarly."

www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Home/Advice/Education/pay-employment/Holiday-Pay

National Education Union -

"The employment rights of support staff in maintained and academy sectors in England, Wales and Northern Ireland."

•"Unlike teachers, most support staff members are employed on a term-time only basis.This means being paid only for the weeks that the school is open, e.g. 39 weeks, plus paid leave entitlement."

neu.org.uk/advice/support-staff-employment-rights

Burgundy Book -

"Teachers shall be paid salary in accordance with the terms of the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document by monthly instalments and should receive not less than one-third of a year’s salary for each full term’s service. For the purpose of these arrangements the three terms in each year shall be constituted as follows:"
the Summer term from May 1 to August 31;
the Autumn term from September 1 to December 31;
the Spring term from January 1 to April 30.

My contract states I’m paid for 32.5 hours per week, 39 weeks per year.That is stretched.

Are you a sixth form only or college teacher? Long term supply teacher? Teaching assistant?

I dont think most are realising the difference between what they want and the reality of what would happen.

Parents may want there children in school over the summer but could you imagine if that actually happened?
How much teaching do you think will happen when children have already been couped up for months indoors, and outraged at missing out on the summer holidays and the lovely weather they can see out their classroom window.

Does anyone really think that teachers will get much done in those circumstances? With children who are angry at not being able to enjoy their holidays with their friends out in the summer sun? Do you really think after being couped up and not having a break to expend that energy the children will in any way be teachable? Think about what happens towards the end of term when the kids are looking forwards to a well needed break and things slowly descend into chaos as they just need some time to be carefree without the stress and anxiety and being stuck sitting reasonably still in a classroom?

Not RTFT so sorry if this has already been said!

Yanbu I've spent almost a year planning activities and paying off our holiday . We are supposed to be going to york to stay in a cabin in a forest and enjoy what the vale of york has to offer.

@clavinova
That is what my contract and wage slip sets out.

My wage slip details my hours worked, and my hourly rate.

According to another poster, a maximum of 5.6 weeks of holiday pay (depending on years of service) has been factored into the pay for holidays - I think in my case it must make up part of my hourly rate, and must simply be the way my authority details it.

That would mean that teachers get a maximum of 5.6 weeks holiday pay factored in, and 7 weeks unpaid. However the pay is stretched over 12 months, so we get roughly the same every month.

TAs don’t get any extra pay factored in - that would explain the detail in the burgundy book. Their hourly rate is stretched over 12 months (although in my authority they can choose to be paid over the 39 weeks worked if they wish)

I’m sorry if it’s upsetting you hope that makes sense?

Beebie2
I’m sorry if it’s upsetting you

Why am I upset? My posts have been very calm unlike some. I have already posted that the government would probably have to pay teachers extra if they decide to cancel/shorten school holidays because of directed time - unless they furlough teachers beforehand.

You didn't actually answer my question - your contract is unusual for a permanent school teacher.

I can see lots of teaching assistant/HLTA jobs advertised 32.5 hours per week, 39 weeks per year.

@Clavinova
full-time teacher must be available for work on 195 days and, on 190 of these, the teacher may be required to teach pupils.The number of hours for which teachers can be directed to teach or undertake other professional duties is subject to a limit of 1,265."

Most teachers already do over 1,265 hours of professional duties in a year.
1,265÷190= 6.6 hours per day if those 1,265 hours are purely for teaching time.
If they also cover professional duties on the other hand
1,265÷195=6.4 hours per day.
The average school day for a teacher is 8.30-4 of classroom engaged work at the upper estimate and not including marking and planning in evenings and weekends which is 7.5 hours, remove a hour for lunch/breaks that's 6.6 hours. So using conservative teaching contact time 9-3.30 that leaves the average teacher roughly 30min-1hr a day to complete planning, marking, pastoral duties outside of face 2 face teaching which a majority of teachers already spend more time on average doing.
So your 1265 hours per academic year is already being gone over hugely by the average teacher.

Learn to do maths before you look silly..

Learn to do maths before you look silly.

Sorry, but I think your post is a little silly.

@Clavinova
I can see lots of teaching assistant/HLTA jobs advertised 32.5 hours per week, 39 weeks per year.

32.5x39=1267 so even that is already over the 1265 which you stated in a way to suggest that teachers dont work that many hours teaching alone..

So how you explain how your infallible evidence which suggests teachers dont work hard enough has already proven itself not so infallible?

Does it not suggest that teachers are already taken advantage of in terms of hours work vs hours paying? Simply because teachers only stay in the profession due to having a love and passion for it and therefore it seems people have no qualms about taking advantage of it.

Sorry, but I think your post is a little silly.

I don’t think so. Littlefox’s breakdown is pretty much exactly what my head teacher gave us all a few years back to show how the directed time worked.

He certainly wasn’t silly.

Clavinova

Sorry, but I think your post is a little silly.

Says the person that in all their years of posting has never fully made their case

Yeah I’m a permanent school teacher

I’ve worked in 3 local authorities and an academy, and all have detailed my hourly rate on the payslip.

I thought you were upset, because you keep asking the same thing, yet I have no more information.

Are you wanting a job in the state sector? If you’re wondering how we’re paid, the unions have good info about how it works.

I can’t find anything online, about how holiday or annual leave is calculated. We can’t accrue annual leave though eg if we leave mid year or like some jobs accrue it on maternity - my union detail that, but nothing detailing anything concrete about holidays.

All I have to work on, is my own wage slips, and my contract that says I’m contracted for 39 weeks including 5 INSET days.

I work approx 50-60 hours per week in term time and then in the holidays for varying amounts of time. I can’t stick to the 32.5 hours per day, or the conservative estimates of what extra we should do. I don’t mind though, I like my job.

The number of hours for which teachers can be directed to teach or undertake other professional duties is subject to a limit of 1,265.

There is an extra bit on the end;

"The number of hours for which teachers can be directed to teach or undertake other professional duties is subject to a limit of 1,265." "On top of this teachers are expected to work ‘reasonable additional hours’ to fulfil their professional responsibilities."

But yes, some teachers probably do work more than what might be considered reasonable additional hours - like many professions.

I have already posted;

"I'm not complaining about my dcs' teachers - I can't really ask more of them - very impressed so far."

I thought you were upset, because you keep asking the same thing, yet I have no more information.

No I didn't.

But most other professionals have a wage that reflects the likelihood of working reasonable additional hours. And often as responsibility increases and likelihood of working additional hours increases so does wage.

This is clearly not the case for majority of teachers.

If you assume the average working week is 37.5 hours over 52 weeks which is approximately 1950hours per year working.

The average figures I've seen on here and other forums from teachers working is approximately 40-60 hours per week, so I'll use the average/median which is 50.
If a teacher works a average of 50 hours per week over 39 weeks of the year then they are also working 1950 hours per year, condensed into a much shorter time frame, but yet still being paid prorata for 39 weeks at 32.5 hours rather then 37.5 over 52 meaning that teachers do a huge amount of unpaid work.

Most professionals would not do a full years work in hours per year, but only get paid 32.5 hours for 39 weeks. There would be utter outrage and hysteria in most professional industries.

Yet people still seem to wanna tell teachers they have it easy. Or dont have difficult and exhausting jobs. Or it's not harder then "any other job".

Both me and DH would walk out of our professional jobs if we where offered the same pay and conditions as teachers. And we both work additional hours. But our pay reflects the hours and responsibilities we are expected to do. This is not the case for teachers. And frankly imo that is a huge issue. And rather then ripping the profession down we should be throwing as many thanks as we can, as teachers educate our children, spend unpaid hours and their own money ensuring our children have varied and enriched educations. They spend hours of their own time planning activities rather then simply saying we arent being paid so we wont (as even just marking or basic admin I imagine would eat up extra time from my experiences with the profession).

If the kids did go back then we still wouldn't be able to go on holiday anyway - crowds and gatherings will be stopped for months yet.

@LittleFoxKit beautifully put, thank you

Our local secondary school had a mere 4 pupils in today - normally 750.....

The work sent home is fairly easy to set, doesn't take much effort to set it. No idea why some suggest 'all' teachers are working since I would expect the vulnerable to be off and shielding and the ones left in schools - doesn't take many to look after a mere 4 pupils. There is no marking just remote set work, lots of which marks as it goes - maths etc.
Younger ones are using study ladder and mymaths - again self marking.

So why not continue with this 'schools are open for some' during the July/August period using the staff on a rota system. Hardly any are working at our secondary anyway, not that they need to be.

Anybody that thinks teachers are working a 50/60 hour a week at present are in dreamland!

@LittleFoxKit great post but just wanted to add that I very rarely, if ever, get a lunch break!

@Amotherof6 erm it's the school holidays?

Actually - the school holidays ended yesterday here.... the return to school was today and 4 pupils were there.
Some teachers are working others are not.

Amotherof6

Not all work can be automatically marked, A lot of teachers are still marking and feeding back to kids.

As for the rest

RTFT.

I know that teachers work really hard and very long hours but once they shut the schools before the holiday and today after the holidays only a few children were in.
Exams have been abandoned so year 11 don't required teaching. The rest of the stay at home kids are being given some online things to do using MyMaths StudyLadder etc none of that actually involves much work... the sites have the tasks set up already and are self marking. So not work for the teachers.
I know they usually work hard but currently there is no need to - no lessons, no kids and online work means little to do. Obviously there will be a teacher out there saying they still work 60 hours a week but looking at our local schools... with the work set and tiny number of pupils in means that they have very little to do.

No problem with that but let's not pretend they are really busy.

I wish the 3 schools that mine attend did that... would be lovely, however, it really isn't happening everywhere