To think I should push and push council to accommodate roughsleeping DS at this time? Long, sorry.

[Molly175]

DS1, mental health diagnosis (sczophrenia, flat effects) and formerly sectioned. Behaviour pattern includes going off, technically missing (police involved). Often. MH team know it's part of his condition. Rarely on meds, needle phobic and finds a way of taking them out of mouth when back turned. Meds is DH's responsibility. MH carers not seeing DS now because of Covid.

Long history of disappearing for several years at a time. Now back in area, and since hospital (self discharge once section lifted), we've scoped him up and funded his accommodation in hotels etc. Back on the street and he wouldn't survive. Physically ill - severely underweight, fungal infection, walks with difficulty, narcolepsy.

Long story short - was accommodated because of local authority Covid directive. But he twice went off and second time, a day or so ago, lost his room. Another resident told building manager that DS had told him he didn't want to be there and then went off in a car. Manager and council assumed he'd left, aided by us. DS says he didn't say this, he is very reserved, and we certainly didn't drive him off. So decision made on heresay evidence.

Next few days were spent (again) liaising with police to find him. Turned up yesterday - went to hospital - given overnight sofa but told that there aren't any beds.

Huge efforts to get another MH assessment yesterday. Went round in circles, hence visit to hospital where they were very concerned but hands tied because of the bed situation.

Shelter say directive doesn't let councils 'punish' behaviour this way.

Now, DS is lying in a sleeping bag, in a car park. People want to help and report this. With the senior housing officer whose decision this was, we've drawn a blank. He's obdurate. Have written to a Councillor who wants to know more but, I fear, all roads will lead to this officer who won't budge. He, over years, has not understood how DS's MH means that he can't be treated like someone who is bloody minded or has real agency.

No access to sanitation, to eating property - and no sign that things will change, certainly over the long w/end. I'm trying to find someone for him but affordable (and I'm in debt) places are few and far between because of lockdown. And he shouldn't travel anymore.

DS can't live here yet. Years ago his behavour impacted horribly on younger ones. We sought help but it was so patchy and lacking.

AIBU for thinking that DH and I should push this as much as can rather than sit back, let DS ride out the pandemic in a sleeping bag (if he makes it) or try, as we have so often in the past, to find somewhere, not too pricey, that will take him? Then again, he shouldn't travel. He's a risk to himself and others. I'm clear about that. I'm at my wit's end. Genuine apologies for length.

When the council arranged accommodation for your son he would have signed a document where he agreed to stay there every night. The document would have said that if he didn't stay there every night he would lose the accommodation.

It's not a case of punishing him for leaving but either the accommodation is needed or it isn't. This is standard when putting people into temporary accommodation. If your son does not have the capacity to manage this then temporary accommodation probably isn't the right place for him at the moment. He probably needs to be sectioned and then apply for temporary accommodation again afterwards.

The council official is applying the rules correctly. Quite apart from everything else Housing benefit will not pay for the accommodation if he is coming and going and as a pp has mentioned the accommodation will be in great demand.

It sounds like all you can do is take him food (and his meds if you have access) to him, which is absolutely fine to do, you’re providing care for someone vulnerable. But you can’t force him to eat, take his meds or stay in the accommodation offered. You’re doing your best in very difficult circumstance

BTW, he was temporarily given a room, when lockdown started, under the Housing Act Part V11 because he was eligible for 'assistance, homeless and in priority need'. He's not had a letter terminating this agreement. It happened, quite literally, on the say so of another resident. Of course, DS should not have left but this is really something outside his control, until and unless he's treated appropriately.

Ok that's a starting point. So he was given as s188 interim duty to accommodate. This is good because it gives something to challenge rather than relying on guidelines re CV (which are not law)

Occupants in interim accommodation are not entitled to a court order requiring them to leave but they should be given reasonable notice. This does not appear to have happened. So that is unlawful in itself and that can be challenged.

I also think there is an argument to challenge the decision to end the interim duty as you have said it is on the say so of another resident.

But even if he had "left of his own accord" there is an argument to say that due to the nature of his illness, he is not not making good decisions and local authorities should be sensitive to this.

No local authorities should be evicting occupants regardless -because of CV protocols.

You might need some help to challenge the LA with this. If you want to PM me your LA I can have a look to see what help is available.

Again though- anyone assisting will need to take instructions from your son unless you have authority to act on his behalf and is he likely to be engaged enough to do this?

If he’s not staying in the accommodation provided, not taking his meds and has not engaged with any of the support he’s had then realistically that’s unlikely to change though?

OP does your area have a separate mental health team for homeless people? We have that in our area and they seem very proactive in seeking people out so that support can be provided.

@underthepatio He won't be sectioned, even if you think he should be.

Livelovebehappy Agree about the need to be sectioned but finding it very hard to find out the process here.

DS didn't say he wanted to leave - he left his stuff in his room, went off, confused. Meanwhile, management packed his things away, reallocated his room, believed the other resident who said that DS had told him he wanted to go when he hadn't - there had been no interaction between them.

Finding it so hard to get MH support for DS, especially over this long weekend. I wonder if all MH Trusts have MH Homeless teams? I've asked the execs I wrote to today - no response.

It seems that his case is being passed back and forwards between the mental health teams and the council.

Mental health team says he needs housing
Council have offered housing but they cannot force him to stay and if him coming and leaving and staying out overnight is putting others at risk then that cannot be allowed. It's kind of what comes first the chicken or the egg. He can't engage with housing/follow the instructions until his mental health is stabilised but the mental health cannot be stabilised as he cannot be forced to take his meds/attend therapy and he cannot be forced to take his meds as an inpatient/sectioned as he doesn't meet that criteria (I'm sure the criteria is a floating goal post that moves as the beds become available/unavailable)

I dont see how he cannot be sectioned as a risk to himself. Surely he cannot demonstrate capacity and risk assess.

You can ask the mental health team to carry out an assessment in terms of sectioning. You might get lucky. But my experience is they do not section you for basically neglecting yourself.

OP this must be so painful for you and I'm sorry. Your anguish is very clear.

If the case to section someone has to be based on them being a danger to themselves and / or others, couldn't that come at the moment from the argument that his behaviour risks him both contracting Covid 19 and spreading it to others?

No wise words just so sorry for what you are going through and sending prayers for your son.

Would you be willing to contact his cmht to ask whether he meets the criteria for medication administration by depot, or if they could think about a section compelling him to receive depot?

This may not work for him, but would be a possible way of ensuring he received medication, especially if his decision making may be impaired.

My DS has psychosis and autism and has been sectioned twice. He is in a lovely supported housing unit now, but doesn't want to be there. He will not take any medication either and can't be forced to do so without a community treatment order being in place. This is because he isn't a danger to anybody else.

The key to being in supported housing is to having a social worker. They are the ones that arrange the funding for supported housing, not the mental health services. So unfortunately without a social worker being place some people will fall down the cracks.

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This sounds so tough for you, @Molly175 But it does seem from your first post that he disappeared off after having been allocated the room, and the second time it happened it took the police several days to track him down. Therefore it’s not a simple case of him being ‘evicted.’ It would have been a risk to other residents anyway to just let him back in after being away overnight ... presumably he can’t be responsible to self isolate, and there would be a very real risk to other people, many of whom probably aren’t in great health to begin with.

Tbh it may be difficult to know exactly what happened anyway... this other resident may indeed be making up the stuff about your ds saying he didn’t want to stay there, but the fact is, he did disappear and took a few days to track down (according to your first post) so what can the council do? It’s not unreasonable to pack up someone’s stuff if they breach the agreement on which the room was given.

I’m not apportioning blame btw- if he’s not capable of agreeing to stick to the conditions then it sounds as though the council can’t actually sort this issue. It sounds more and more like a health issue tbh rather than a housing one

Also agree with @Butterymuffin that the COVID situation changes things because behaviour which might not normally be deemed a risk to others, now could be.

Please listen to @Sargass0 and @scott2609. You need to put legal pressure on the Council .

I wonder if all MH Trusts have MH Homeless teams? I've asked the execs I wrote to today - no response

Ours doesn't.

For 10 years I worked in with homeless people and had many clients like your poor son, OP. They are very challenging and hard to engage, and require a comprehensive multi-agency approach where there is no MH specific homeless service. It's even more challenging at the moment because a lot of agencies aren't doing face-to-face work and are only giving telephone support.

I really for you and your son, he's in a very tricky situation. In some ways, it would almost be better if he became more unwell so that he ended up sectioned. Once stable, some effective discharge planning might be able to find him a suitable place. That, together with housing support and input from an assertive outreach MH worker might just succeed.

It's awful the way that services for people with complex needs like this are so fragmented. And it's awful for families, struggling to navigate a system that is labyrinthine, stretched to the max and where communication between agencies is poor.

I repeat what the majority have said, do not have him back home. That isn't safeguarding yourself or your other children and agree all services would the. Walk away. You accomodating him is not in his best interests and would be a step back. Most councils have an out of hours number for social care call the switchboard and a recorded message will tell you yours. Phone it up and make a referral, they will only log it and fob you off but that is something you can do now, if he has a social worker they will be notified of all out of hours calls when they return to work.Then start emailing local councillors and mp. Then come Monday get onto adult social care. It is going to be tedious but he needs be offered another b and b bed, I work in this sector and we know and expect rough sleepers to walk out and fuck up. In our area we are taking the pragmatic view to just place them in another one, we can't do much work to resolve underlying issues so we just give them another chance to be successful.

The two options I can think of for sectioning are the police or A and E but I have no idea how it works right now.

I know they have discharged as many patients from the wards as possible, some are clearly still very unwell so I can see why they are so reluctant to section and then have the legal requirement to keep someone in a safe place.

we know and expect rough sleepers to walk out and fuck up. In our area we are taking the pragmatic view to just place them in another one, we can't do much work to resolve underlying issues so we just give them another chance to be successful

Yes that’s what happens in our area, especially if ( like the Ops son) they are vulnerable .

I think you need to get a mental health social worker involved. Are there SWs in the local community mental health team? You also have the legal right to ask for a mental health act assessment.
It’s a very difficult situation, really hope you get it resolved.

OP, when your DS was sectioned last time, as he had an acute diagnosis, was he not assessed for a S117 aftercare pathway?

Depending on what section under the MHA he was detained under, there is a legal duty on services to provide the 117 aftercare.

That said, there is some really good advice here.

Ginger, you're right. The police can impose a s136 if a person become a danger to themselves or others in a public place. They would take into police custody and wait for a bed. This (I think) offers a duty of 72 hours, that would commute to a section 2 in a psychiatric unit. Following an assessment then it would be a section 3 if the medical team determine a further detainment.

Adult social care have a duty here. If OP, son was under a section 3 last time, a 117 aftercare should be in place.

A PP gave some excellent t advice re housing upthread and found a starting point there. Ibtbibk there are two strands to OPs son. Medical treatment and housing. Both need to run concurrently.

We’ve had this situation before over a holiday weekend where one of ours service users lost his BnB place because he was threatening the staff ( he was very mentally unwell and hadn’t taken him meds ).

We didn’t want him on the streets because it was winter and terrible weather. He’d have died overnight or more Likely seriously assaulted someone.

The hospital refused to take him, even though he had been sectioned previously.

The Home Office would do nothing as he was an asylum seeker with an application under appeal.

So the police encouraged the Bnb staff to make a complaint so they could take him into custody over the weekend.