To be fed up with shop shamers on here

[MonaLisaDoesntSmile]

Firstly, please dont think I encourage people going out three times a day to get some chocolate or ice cream or whatever. The guidance is clear to go as infrequently as possible (although unlike some people think, it's NOT to go shopping once a week or fortnight). However, the amount of people saying stuff along the lines - your shopping is not essential/ we did it, therefore everyone else can do it/you don't need this or that/ you can make your own bread* (whatever other item) is a bit shocking. In times when empathy is particularly important too.

So just to say, the reason while some people cannot just go out to shop once a month like you:

• some people have multiple food allergies and/or have limited diet, making shopping and finding the items needed more difficult.
• some shops around are not well stocked as those in other areas and essentials are not always available the time they go shopping
• not everyone has an industrial size fridge and freezer. I for one have no space to freeze 4 gallons of milk or 2 loafs of bread
• not everything people may need freezes well
• some delivery shops offer fresh produce which expire quickly. Our only delivery which we managed to sort out over the last two weeks had everything expiring within 2/3 days, with the bread expiring the next day, not a week like we hoped, we were not able to freeze all the stuff we wanted either. My two local small shops are notorious for selling fruit and veg which lasts 2-3 days is we're lucky
• not everyone had an amazingly stocked pantry before, nor space to buy a lot of items with long shelf life
• one's person essentials are not the same as other people- the fact someone do not consider something as essential does not mean it is also not essential for other people and the other way round
• not everyone has a car and can do a huge shop infrequently
• not everyone has an amazing support network
• not everyone is lucky to have enough money to make one big shop a fortnight
• not everyone has local shops which deliver to your doorstep- we have nothing in our area, no butchers, no corner shops do home deliveries so we depend on ourselves having to go out and actually hope we can buy what we need
• not everyone has equipment, know how and/or ingredients to make lets say bread or whatever else people think you can magically whip up on the spot.
• some people do not have a great support network, and asking strangers to do a huge shop is not always possible

I'm sure there are other reasons too, we all have different needs.

I think isntead of shouting at others that they dare to go out shopping, maybe lets just accept that without knowing the circumstances it may be best not to judge? Everyone is doing their best with what we have.

I'm going to go one step further

If you haven't changed your shopping habits since the lockdown, then you really don't understand the lockdown and you do need to change your habits.

I will never presume to judge anyone in a shop, I have no idea of their story or what they need. It is none of my business how they have decided whether they need to shop .
But in a discussion space like this, I hope that restating as infrequently as possible will help to get the message across.

Amen, @steppemum.

I expect the ones saying 'there's no harm in it' will be the ones least likely to understand when the cut-off limits for ventilators are applied.
Which will be very soon, sadly.

@midwesteaster What worries me more if that we have open borders and flights coming in from places that are hot spots, with no checks nor quarantine, not Bob getting an icecream. It's like we put all that effort to stay at home to contain it, but the government does whatever and then shifts the blame back to us.

@steppemum The point I was trying to make is that for some people it's easier to amend shopping habits tahn for others. But if you have a for example very restricted diet, or a large family, or have no car, then shopping infrequently may not be as easy as for lets say a healthy single person/couple. Telling people they are selfish because they can't stick to once a week/fortnight shops (while the government still has not sorted out PPE and testing for NHS staff, nevermind the rest ofkeyworkers and society, and lets in people from corona hotspots with no check or whatsoever) is not on, hence opened this thread.

OP there would have been some validity to your point on hotspots after last half term sking trips to northern Italy but the UK is a hotspot itself now.

I agree that the government needs to be kept to account for decisions it made but that doesn't help where the UK is currently.

popcornpaws that's what we both did; you don't like my opinion, that's fine.

You don't get to police me and I don't want to police you. That's the difference.

It's not anybody's business what people buy but I agree with steppemum that it's in everybody's interests to make their shopping trips out as infrequent as possible. We should all be doing that so if a few don't/won't then hopefully the majority on more rigid lockdown will make a difference.

This isn't going to go soon, it's going to take a toll on lives and nerves and there's no way around that.

OP,
actually , every single one of us being strict about social distancing is a lot more effective than worrying about a plane coming in.

We do need to understand that Bob and his ice cream is yet another link in the chain. Every link needs to be broken to defeat the epidemic.
The issue is not one Bob, but that there is a Bob in every single street.

This is from an epidemiologist:

You should perceive your entire family to function as a single individual unit: If one person puts themselves at risk, everyone in the unit is at risk. Seemingly small social chains get large and complex with alarming speed. If your son visits his girlfriend, and you later sneak over for coffee with a neighbor, your neighbor is now connected to the infected office worker that your son’s girlfriend’s mother shook hands with. This sounds silly, it’s not. This is not a joke or hypothetical. We as epidemiologists see it borne out in the data time and time again.

@midwesteaster - but we are telling people not to leave their houses, and yet letting in people from all over the place (who will be staying not in quarantine, but with family/friends/strangers/hotels/wherever else), not making sure they knew the emasures, and then blaming some old lonely people that they want to go and get a newspaper. How is that helping stopping the spread?

@steppemum I agree, each Bob can change history, Bo unfortunately so can a plane full of people who have not been made aware of the current guidelines, let loose all over the place. Australia has strick quarantine for incomers. We don't. So Bobs on my street can sit at home and suffer, but XYZ's coming from abroad will still be spreading away and Bob may eventually get it on the one monthly shop trip eventually. What I am saying is that it should not be one or the other, but all, and testing, and other things we are not doing, and the government is failing on one front completely, blaming (together with keyboard warriors) individuals who sometimes do but sometimes do not have other choice than to go out.

Funnily enough I actually am a strong believer in infrequent shopping by the way, but looks like I'm playing devil's advocate in my last posts...

letting in people from all over the place

Who are these people you are imagining are currently being let in?

It is proving extremely difficult for the UK government to repatriate British citizens at present. Those that manage to get back are going to be returning to their homes or those of friends and families.

Tourism isn't a thing at present. Hotels, holiday cottages etc aren't open at present. If people are traveling to the UK they are going to be aware of C19.

There would be no more reason for these travelers to quarantine than any other UK resident. The UK is already full of C19.

These travelers should of course follow the same guidelines as everyone else in the UK.

I do agree that much more testing is needed though OP.

I agree it must be both.

But in terms of numbers, a Bob on every street is much, much more likely to be an issue than 200 people on a plane, because every street adds up to millions of Bobs.

I hope I have been clear enough to say I am not judging anyone who is out, I do not know their story.
BUT I do feel that many, many people don't really understand the importance of lockdown and why it matters when people pop out to the shop. The epidemiologist I quoted says people are inclined to cheat because they don't understand the significance of small actions, and how one small action quickly mutiplies.

My intention is simply to try and get more people to grasp the significance of small actions and take on board that the aim is to go out as infrequently as possible. What that looks like for each family will be different. But there should be a significant change for all of us.

@midwesteaster I am NOT saying they should not be let in (especially if these are people coming back). What I am saying is that there should be by now some sort of quarantine measures in place, which are non existent. It's like you fight on one front but leave yourself totally open on the other. We're clamping down on grannies going to buy lottery tickets, and yet so many other issues, also if not more burning, are set aside.
Again, I am not advocating for shopping thrice a day, and agree wholeheartedly that we all have a small part to play here.

Why do they need to quarantine?

In Oz they are still working on not letting C19 take hold in the country, which is why it makes sense to quarantine flights from other higher risk countries.

The UK has passed this point and is a higher risk country itself now, the illness is spreading freely within the UK.

If the UK has finished its own stay at home order because the peak had passed it would make sense to quarantine plane passengers because they could reintroduce the illness. But again the UK hasn't reached this point.

What reasoning do you have to think that plane passengers currently should have stricter segregation than the rest of the UK population? ( They already need to follow the same guidelines as everyone else as it stands)

The aim is for us collectively, to have as few physical interactions as possible. That means every individual needs to reduce their own interactions as far as they possibly can. Of course, it will vary according to everyone's individual needs, but we all need to make a big effort about this. Most adults are pretty good at this, apart from the selfish few, but children find this more difficult. Which is why many shops aren't allowing them in.

I am NOT saying they should not be let in (especially if these are people coming back). What I am saying is that there should be by now some sort of quarantine measures in place, which are non existent.

Yes, there are. If you have symptoms you self-isolate for 7 days. If you have been in contact with someone displaying symptoms you self-isolate for 14 days. It is no different if you have flown in to the UK or if you have been on a bus to work.

I expect the ones saying 'there's no harm in it' will be the ones least likely to understand when the cut-off limits for ventilators are applied.
Which will be very soon, sadly.

You may well be right. I’ve been wondering about the opposite though. I wonder how the self-appointed lockdown police - the ones shouting at people for going shopping ‘more often than they should’ , the ones stockpiling, the ones calling the police because their neighbour has walked the dog twice in one day - will react in a few months’ time if this pandemic passes, deaths are no higher than the seasonal average, and there have to be huge tax increases to pay for the economic and social cost of the lockdown.

I just feel so sorry for the people who live alone and have only an outing to the shop to look forward too and now face either losing their one bright spark in a day or going and risking being judged by people who's rather label then as selfish or make fun of them as small minded than have some empathy for them.

This crisis has really some a lot to highlight the loneliness epidemic in this country. I hope when all this is over people will remember the plight of the lonely and more will be done for them.

Sorry, lots of phone typos, hopefully it's understandable

will react in a few months’ time if this pandemic passes, deaths are no higher than the seasonal average, and there have to be huge tax increases to pay for the economic and social cost of the lockdown.

I take it you haven't seen any footage about Italy then?
We are on the same tragetory. Expect the same number of deaths, pray for less chaos as out NHS has had more time to prepare.

You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think it isn't going to happen

now face either losing their one bright spark in a day

They have lost this for the moment I'm not really seeing how this isn't clear to them? Maybe these are the people who the letter from the prime minister is meant to explain the current situation to.
The current situation really sucks for a wide range reasons for a wide range of people.
I have empathy for them but they are being profoundly daft in insisting on going out daily, they are placing themselves and others at unnecessary risk. They need to be persuaded to stop.

@MonaLisaDoesntSmile I see your point, and I’ve said the same on other threads. It’s different for people with allergies, illnesses and restricted diets. I can see that having to feed a toddler too little to understand why they have to eat something different would also make it more difficult.

But I think people who can be flexible are in the majority and if we shop less, the shops will be safer for those who need to go more often.

FIL is one of those still going to the corner shop every day.

We've tried suggesting he doesn't. His response is:

1. he's stopped going to any supermarkets and is eating his way through two giant freezers and a well-stocked larder, so isn't going anywhere else.
2. he's walking past the shop with the dog anyway. Rural area, easy to avoid people
3. the shop, not being daft, have introduced a one customer at a time policy. Also the door is open. So no need to touch anything.
4. FIL has paid for his newspapers up front, so he is walking in, collecting his paper, and having a brief chat with the guy hiding behind the counter well over 2m away, and maybe the odd person outside, again from well over 2m away, not touching anything.
5. It gives him something to do on the dog walk and in between calls from family (a couple each day) and probably isn't putting others at significant risk. Though we all know the real reason is that since MIL died a few months ago, he really doesn't care that much.

If he does get it, or any other illness, he'll probably refuse to call 999 or 'burden' the NHS, leaving SIL or us to find him in due course. We know he's on borrowed time, so it's going to happen sometime in the next few years...