To hope that some people now understand that it's not somebody's fault they're poor?

[Moomin8]

All of a sudden loads of people have had to claim UC

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/24/britain-benefits-rishi-sunak-claimants-austerity?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Torsten Bell, head of the Resolution Foundation, says people on £50,000 salaries have been anxiously asking him about benefits rates. They’re in for a shock, he says.” Funny, that: before this crisis, those doing alright were adamant that benefit rates were too high. Now, they’re worried it’s the opposite.

Or indeed how screwed we'd be if everyone chased the high paid jobs and ignored massively underpaid for the skills and effort needed jobs like, well, nursing? I remember reading Brave New World as a teenager and realising that society just wouldn't run if everyone was an Alpha. Bit like Gove's every child being above average, just doesn't work does it.

I think it's a sad indictment of this country that we blame the poor for being poor. Also that whole swathes of people on a decent wage are going to be plunged into poverty after the loss of a couple of months income (scary how many of even the 'middle classes' are apparently living hand to mouth). I think it'll shed light on some of the structural issues with our version of capitalism, but sadly the elephant in the room will go unchallenged.

Given that most benefits are paid to the working poor, we really need to look at why huge corporations aren't paying their employees enough to live on (or any corporation tax for that matter). Why are the government effectively subsidising the amazon, starbucks, tescos, etc of the world, by topping up their employee's wages, whilst these corps make a few people insanely rich?

Why are so many people angry at the poor who are fighting over the scraps (or have just given up having seen how fucking pointless it is) rather than the greedy fucks who are hoarding billions? For all of you angry at sharon with her 12 kids and council house, consider that the Jeff Bezos' of the world have taken many billions times more money out of the taxpayers pocket, and give your head a wobble.

There would be a lot more money in the pot for those who need it, if it weren't all being funnelled into making labour cheap for big corporations. If you want to be indignant, don't fall for the narritive that it's the poor that are the problem.

This isn't an anti Tory rant. This goes back at least as far as Tony Blair - 'New labour' did more to inhbit social mobility than even our current shower of shite, by supressing wages and forcing people that had never needed benefits before into the system.

The whole system has been corrupted to enrich a few, and they've somehow convinced the masses to blame those that have been most exploited.

And the rich aren't the ones that are going to suffer through the next few months, they'll go unscatehed and unchallenged, whilst taking even more of the pie for themselves.

@jasjas1973

Where on earth have I said it's a bad thing to do?
I am privately educated, 5 A Levels at decent grades, and yet decided to become a teacher on a basic wage.

Where you've got the word "many" from when clearly I've said "some" I've no idea.

Why is it the employers fault? They have no say in where the employee lives, how many hours they work, if they have children etc. It comes down to personal responsibility.

Many do just 16 hours to ensure max benefits and no cap. Sixteen hours won’t support an adult much less a family.

Some jobs pay minimum wage due to the skill level involved. It’s up to the individual alone to make choices within what their salary allows. People that don’t claim benefits have to do this.

I have a friend who doesn't work. 'The lazy scrounging cow chooses to do nothing' said no-one because her husband is rich.

@MarginalGain, I didn't mention "more generous benefits" I clearly stated a return to the old system which took no more than a fortnight to set up/receive payment. There was no need for a 5-6 week wait (and under the current mass increase in new applications I bet it will be more like 8-10 weeks), no need for a payment loan which sinks people into debt. Housing benefit was sorted out swiftly. No confusion over which areas do include council tax relief and which you apply for separately which has led to convictions.
At what point did what I said lead you to think I expect people claiming benefit for whichever reason not to end up being screwed by Sunak when this is over? It will be exactly the same as last time with those hit worse and struggling being the people most affected by austerity measures.

@lynsey91 I know a couple with a similar attitude. She didn't work at all with children 1-3. She worked for a few months when the youngest was about to start school but only because she was told her benefits would be cut if she didn't. And she openly said she'd only be doing it for a few months because she was actively trying for baby number 4 with her new partner. The three eldest are all school age and her partner doesn't work at all. No reason why one or both of them couldn't work.

She's constantly bleating on social media about how expensive it is to feed and clothe four children. The four children she planned despite having never worked for more than a few months at a time in the 12 years since leaving school. And of course, they smoke, drink, holidays (not with the kids because that's too expensive), both have cars, latest phones etc.

Why is it the employers fault? They have no say in where the employee lives, how many hours they work, if they have children etc. It comes down to personal responsibility.

I get some of this but no one working a full time job on minimum wage should be struggling to afford just one child.

My employer reduced my hours. How exactly did they not have a say in that decision? It certainly wasn't mine.

At what point did what I said lead you to think I expect people claiming benefit for whichever reason not to end up being screwed by Sunak when this is over? It will be exactly the same as last time with those hit worse and struggling being the people most affected by austerity measures.

I inferred, logically I think, that you thought there was some silver lining to be found in the post-covid benefit world, I guess you meant this only in the strictest sense.

I agree with you that this marks the beginning of a very tough period for the poorest people in the UK and sadly for the poorest of the poor on the planet. There will be very little capacity for welfare spending or foreign aid and a lot of the middle class will cancel their charitable direct debits.

Why are the government effectively subsidising the amazon, starbucks, tescos, etc of the world, by topping up their employee's wages, whilst these corps make a few people insanely rich?

This. It makes no sense at all.

Interesting how the focus is always on the perceived "scroungers" and never the wealthy tax avoiders.

Oh yes, they spent all those years maximising expenses to minimise their tax bills and now they think they should get benefits based on turnover, not profit!

Who's THEY ?!!

This type of lazy generalisation is no different to the equally lazy generalisation of those 'bone idle minimum wage earner' types who can't be arsed to get themselves educated to get a proper job.

And it's just as sneery, and mean spirited to even think that self employed people can.just.bloody.suffer like "the rest of us"

Honestly I despair of this site sometimes. These ideas are so unhelpful when we should be offering support not vindictiveness.

@Pentium85. So your single parent mother managed to support her family on a low wage without causing any significant disadvantage to her family, because she chose a job that would make her happy over wealthy.
I also notice that you have just stated you are privately educated, just wondering what your definition of a low wage is?

@squirrelsbizaar

I moved out at 16 before my mother took the low paid job.
My father paid for my education.
My brother, like I said, missed out on a few things but nothing major (different dad)
My definition of low pay is absolute minimum wage.
And yes, she chose that job because she valued family time over money.

Christ. Don't give them any ideas. The mentality of some people. its sickening and heart breaking at the same time.

I'm sorry are all of you on this thread going to genuinely say that not a single person in this world is poor out of their own choice? That everyone who is poor is disabled or disadvantaged?

Funny how you keep ignoring when I say we need people to do low paid jobs, and they should be paid more. Or that the system is broken and should support people. Or that some people are poor because they really don't have a choice, but some people do have a choice. These are just facts.

That goes right over your head and you get fixed on one thing taken out of context. Why are you on a discussion forum if you're unable to hold a discussion and you call anyone who disagrees with you a snob, idiot or sexist? No wonder Mumsnet has such a bad rep.

I'm well off. I've been lucky all my life starting with being born to educated, employed, caring parents. I have not worked consistent, outrageous long hours or particularly hard - what I do comes pretty easy to me. I employ people not one of whom gets paid NMW. All get more. I pay an absolute shit load in personal and company taxes. I have always voted Labour because some people are not as lucky as me. Yes some people are idlers, as others are greedy bastards, but on the whole people try and do their best, and do it fairly. Any Tory voter should be profoundly reviewing their basic beliefs about whose work has value, and how vulnerable people are. I look at all those off to work in appallingly paid, high-risk jobs, at the moment, and frankly feel quite ashamed at my continuing good fortune, that I have personal savings, government support for the financial obligations of my business, and the freedom now to sit safe at home, on MN.

Those in well paid consultancy or project management type jobs where they get £450 a day will have a shock & might develop more empathy towards those stuck in the system sometimes due to things out of their control.

I'm one of those people and we don't qualify for the £2.5k at all. I would be beyond grateful if we did however we are all in the 5% not covered.

So we're basically fucked and probably bankrupt.

Also...as it happens I grew up poor, so just because I earned good money doesn't mean I looked down on people before. I didn't.

@Pentium85i actually think you’re right because I did.

I’m 40, I have almost finished a degree in my field and have worked in early years nurseries for 15 years.

I’m still on minimum wage despite having a lot of senior responsibility in my department.

I do it because I genuinely love my job and I know I make a difference. You are right, though, I knew I would never earn a good wage doing this.

@Mummyoflittledragon
Christ. Dont give them ideas about the workhouses. They'll pop up in every city centre otherwise

@Pentium85. So it’s basically what I said from the start, your mother had the luxury to chose a lower paying job, presumably because she was receiving support from your father.
You are privately educated and have probably had a lot of opportunity thrown your way, yet you are still bitter and jealous of people with less than you. How lovely.

Interesting how the focus is always on the perceived "scroungers" and never the wealthy tax avoiders

I'm not sure exactly what a scrounger is, but if it means maximising your finances without actually breaking the rules, then the two have something in common. I think the reason for the difference in perception is that people don't regard trying to take other peoples money as morally equivalent to trying to hold on to your own.

I don't mind legal scroungers or (by definition legal) tax avoiders. Both are only doing what all people are supposed to do all the time in our economy, do as well for themselves as possible, without breaking the rules. If we don't like what they're doing, we should change the rules.

@wheresmymojo - I'm sorry to hear this honestly. I certainly don't think that all well off people look down on those that are not.

Really though nobody can deny that this government have created a selfish society who think others are irrelevant to them. And now we need everyone to take a position of collective responsibility and they just won't do it.