Aibu to think in Pride and Prejudice Mrs Bennett is actually the good parent and Mr Bennett is the silly one?

[SuburbanFraggle]

Yes, she is shrill and annoying and he is chilled out and cool HOWEVER they have five daughters, unmarried who together with his wife will be basically destitute if he dies.

In those days a simple infection, broken arm or whatever could quickly kill you. Even if there was a small sum set aside for them they would end up like Miss Bates in Emma; a very meager existence, at the bottom of their social class and unlikely to marry, thus making it a lifelong situation unless they became governesses - the only respectable employment they could find.

The mother realises this and is trying to get them their own households ASAP before they lose the entailed property. There is not much of a dowry, split between five to make them attractive to suitors. Marriage was a BUSINESS DEAL in those days, and if you're lucky you'll be happy too. Mr Bennett just didn't GAF. All this follow your heart business is not helpful when the six of them (widow and daughters) are stuffed in a tiny cottage and relying on handouts.

It was not unreasonable to try and match one with Mr Collins SO THAT THEY COULD STAY IN THEIR HOME. The bookish one would have been a better match with hindsight but she was not unreasonable to expect Elizabeth to do her duty and save the family. For every story that ends with a Darcy there are a hundred more ending in the Workhouse.

Of course they would not end up with zero, probably some small allowance would be in place, the reality is that the women COULD NOT LEGALLY INHERIT Mr Bennett's estate because of the law at that time regarding entailed property.

AIBU to think Mrs Bennett was the better parent because she cared about the welfare of her children even if she went about it in a bumbling way?

I am most seriously displeased”

One of my favourite phrases, I used it in the classroom all the time.

ABSOLUTELY op.

Oooh, in what circumstances, * mrsBtheparker?

There was no way Lydia could have been rehabilitated as a governess or lady's companion - she was a fallen woman and would no doubt be seducing the sons or husband of the house, also, think of the influence on the children! I suspect that back then, having a known fallen woman raising 'nice' children would have actually adversely affected those children's own marriage prospects, especially the girls.

Best option would have been a discreet cottage with an aunt as chaperone, as happens to Maria in Mansfield Park. But that requires money. Downtrodden housekeeper to some distant relative in the country? Shipped off to the nascent colonies as a housekeeper to a widowed cousin? Not sure how realistic but if you've ever read regency romance, then the typical solution would be Lydia being passed from man to man as a kept woman (mistress/prostitute) in the demimonde, no longer part of polite society, sliding down the social scale as her attractions waned. She'd probably have been passed from Wickham to a brother soldier, and then downwards as they got tired of her.

In Gaskell's Mary Barton, Esther, a fallen woman's only option was prostitution, but that was more from the lower middle classes/working classes I think.

In Gaskell's Mary Barton, Esther, a fallen woman's only option was prostitution, but that was more from the lower middle classes/working classes I think

Yes, though generally pre-marital sex was more tolerated in working class/agrarian communities than the middle/upper classes (for women, I mean, obviously it was always A-OK for men to shag around ). And poor unmarried women with children were supported by their parish during the period that Austen writes about. Workhouses as we usually think of them (Oliver Twist- style) weren't introduced until later. So the prospects for a working class Lydia, were potentially less grim than for a middle class one - though not always of course.

generally pre-marital sex was more tolerated in working class/agrarian communities than the middle/upper classes

One argument given for that is that in the upper and even middle classes you are passing on wealth and property and you want to make sure your children are receiving them. The only way to ensure noone else has impregnated your wife is to have strict taboos around extramarital sex for those who produce heirs.

The child of a prostitute or a bastard from a fallen woman would not inherit so who cares who it's actual father is, right?

With the agrarian classes, they did not inherit land. They would have few things of value to pass on, maybe a ring or something. What was more important was labouring bodies to help you with farming and manual labour. Knowing that Rosie isn't barren is worth a rushed wedding and a 'premature' baby. If that baby grows into a big strapping son, digging in your fields, but looks a bit too much like Joe the Smith, just ignore it as you are benefitting from the labour, not Joe.

Also Lydia needed to Marry Wickham - her other sisters would have been tainted otherwise & unlikely to make a good marriage.

I’ve always disliked Mr B. Mrs B is the better parent.

If you have not read it yet, try "Death comes to Pemberley".

Cornwall's homage to Austin and a shrewed look at how the characters develop after the ending of P&P.

Regarding P&P, Austen always made it clear in her books how much of female life is driven by sexism - everything is dependent on getting a wealthy man because of the limited female life choices and actually marrying someone because you liked them is very subversive. It always sets my teeth on edge when people describe it as "gentle" or "quintessential English," because the Regency period is basically an MRA wet dream. Romance (for women) represented a massive gamble.

I think the issue was Mrs Bennett’s behaviour was wildly counterproductive. It’s not like Jane and Elizabeth didn’t understand their situation. All her histrionics did was make things harder for them, and if they hadn’t found actual love matches they’d have been screwed, because no one wealthy who didn’t love them would have subjected themselves to the public humiliation.

Mr Bennett knew that Jane and Elizabeth were smart, that they understood what the choices they made meant, and that they shouldn’t/couldn’t be forced into a bad marriage in light of that.

Years ago I received a work secret santa gift of 'Pride and Promiscuity - the secret sex scenes of Jane Austen' which had Charlotte Lucas as a dominatrix playing the role of Lady Catherine de Bourgh. That's how I like to picture her now, rolling her eyes and admiring her pretty house as she spanks the grateful Mr Collins. It makes her fate less depressing 😉.

Totally agree re the Mr and Mrs Bennet point - I had always been rather fond of Mr B and had the belated revelation when re-watching recently that actually he's awful. Will have to re-read the book now.

kmc exactly, Mrs Bennet knows exactly what she needs to do but constantly undermines herself with her lack of awareness of how to behave. Gossiping in public about how Jane has snared A rich husband is the reason it all nearly falls through when Darcy tries to “rescue “ his friend.

Frank Churchill can’t marry Jane Fairfax because he is relying on inheritance from an aunt who could change her mind, rather than from a parent, which would be more guaranteed (although that isn’t the case in S&S). He’s got his eyes on a bigger fortune than his father’s. Once the aunt dies and he’s sure of the money it was fine to marry penniless but accomplished Jane. While she was alive it was much more sensible for him to pretend to be after rich and well bred Emma.

Mrs B remind me of one of those show mums constantly thrusting their daughters into the limelight, but that was the name of the game back then, the more exposure the more interest from men and the better chance of securing a husband! I liked Mr B but he does comes across as disinterested in the girls and their lives, other than lizzy, but were men close to their daughters back then? I’m not sure! Don’t think I could read any books that paint them in a bad light tho!

I’d just like to add to the reading list on this thread

I’ve just finished listening to 'The Other Bennet Girl' by Janice Somebody

It’s from Mary's point of view and runs parallel with P&P to start but then carries on after the death of Mr Bennet.
I took a while to get into it, but it was worth it.

Agreed, @TheABC. JA is completely clear-eyed about romance being a gamble for women as well as being an economic proposition. Even intelligent Lizzy is initially taken in by and attracted to Wickham, just as Marianne in Sense and Sensibility almost loses her life because of Willoughby, who has left a trail of seduced and betrayed women behind him, and Jane Fairfax is humiliated and made ill by her secret engagement to Frank Churchill — all situations in which money and love are mixed up, as of course they were in reality for middle-class Regency women.

I think the sad truth is that they are both awful parents.

Mrs Bennet has the right idea about the daughters needing to marry, but letting Lydia go to Brighton is a massive error of judgment, with disastrous consequences.

(And Mr Bennet refuses to step in to stop her going despite Lizzie's pleas.)

On the other hand, why is "you have delighted us long enough" thought to be so terrible? I always thought Mr Bennet was just saying 'let someone else have a go now, be a dear'. Is it that he was obviously being sarcastic to Mary?

Darcy though 🤤

The Bennett house in the Ehle/Firth version is a hotel now isn’t it?

@iMoan7 I think you mean Colin Firth. Darcy the character has very little to recommend him - other than £10,000 a year of course - and despite his 11th hour change of personality, he wouldn’t be the first man to seem to improve, but eventually reverts to type.

In truth, as much as I love P&P, none of the characters are particularly attractive personalities, except perhaps the Gardiners.

Enjoying this thread. I think Mrs Bennet would have married and given birth to Jane by about 22 (she was enjoying socialising with officers at Lydia’s age so obviously wasn’t married off at 16, but was still sufficiently young for Mr Bennet to have had little or no insight into her character) which makes her about 44. I put Mr Bennet at 50.
So Mr Bennet’s death wasn’t imminent but could have been expected in the next ten years. So while he is still far too relaxed she is beginning to get very worried indeed.

A good, fun critique of Jane Austen is ‘Letters to Alice’ by Fay Weldon.

No, it’s definitely Darcy. We see him falling for Lizzy like a tonne of bricks, he swoops in to save the family from a terrible fate at huge emotional cost to himself, and he recognises his failings and does his level best to live up to them. I fancied Darcy something rotten when Colin Firth was just a schoolboy communist.

That’s why the Lady CDB scene in the Olivier P&P is THE WORST SCENE IN ANY ADAPTATION EVER - it turns CDB into a sweet old lady and Darcy into a suspicious bastard. Darcy knows Elizabeth, and he has total faith in her character. To suggest that he’d set a trap to check whether she is a gold digger so late in the day is the worst piece of character assassination I’ve ever seen.

I don't think that there are any good parents in Austen.

P&P- see above
S&S- Mrs. Dashwood too indulgent to Marianne and too reliant on Elinor
MP- Sir Thomas negligent and arrogant, Lady B supine. Mr. Price drunken and vulgar, Mrs. Price like Lady B
Emma- father self-indulgent and needy
NA- General Tilney irascible and materialistic. Morelands kind enough but they have too many children

I'm really enjoying this thread. I haven't read any JA for many years and this thread has made me want to re-read them. MP was always my least favourite so I haven't read it since I had to rip it apart for A level. I pretty much detested all of the MP characters; the only one I liked was the pug dog!

Yeah, MNetters would tell both lizzie and jane to LTB!

Great thread. I LOVE the idea of Mrs B as a "show mum" - in fact, there is mileage in an update as P and P does Dance Moms!

I think Mrs B probably married and had Jane before she was twenty as she is pretty frantic about Jane's spinster status. So she's no more than 41 or 42 at the time fo the book. And I agree with the assessment of her as out of her depth in the society she married into; and also probably the victim of enormous snobbery from other women, the kind of unpleasantness that blokes don't always notice but which would have made it v difficult for her to showcase her girls to society in the more subtle accepted ways.