Aibu to think in Pride and Prejudice Mrs Bennett is actually the good parent and Mr Bennett is the silly one?

[SuburbanFraggle]

Yes, she is shrill and annoying and he is chilled out and cool HOWEVER they have five daughters, unmarried who together with his wife will be basically destitute if he dies.

In those days a simple infection, broken arm or whatever could quickly kill you. Even if there was a small sum set aside for them they would end up like Miss Bates in Emma; a very meager existence, at the bottom of their social class and unlikely to marry, thus making it a lifelong situation unless they became governesses - the only respectable employment they could find.

The mother realises this and is trying to get them their own households ASAP before they lose the entailed property. There is not much of a dowry, split between five to make them attractive to suitors. Marriage was a BUSINESS DEAL in those days, and if you're lucky you'll be happy too. Mr Bennett just didn't GAF. All this follow your heart business is not helpful when the six of them (widow and daughters) are stuffed in a tiny cottage and relying on handouts.

It was not unreasonable to try and match one with Mr Collins SO THAT THEY COULD STAY IN THEIR HOME. The bookish one would have been a better match with hindsight but she was not unreasonable to expect Elizabeth to do her duty and save the family. For every story that ends with a Darcy there are a hundred more ending in the Workhouse.

Of course they would not end up with zero, probably some small allowance would be in place, the reality is that the women COULD NOT LEGALLY INHERIT Mr Bennett's estate because of the law at that time regarding entailed property.

AIBU to think Mrs Bennett was the better parent because she cared about the welfare of her children even if she went about it in a bumbling way?

it is only by careful management by her husband that they are not deeply in debt.

Mr Bennet has made no provision for his widow and daughters for when he dies. In those days there were no jobs they could do as gentry. Elizabeth, Jane and Mary could perhaps be governesses but Lydia and Kitty are too poorly educated for that.

He had hoped for a son who could legally inherit and who would allow his mothers and 5 sisters to stay at home (I'm sure his bride would have been on Mumsnet with 6 in-laws living with them) or provide for him otherwise. When no boy appeared he just shrugged his shoulders.

It's very difficult to project ourselves back into the mindset of the early 19th century. For example, I'm not sure Austen expected her readers to feel sorry for Charlotte Lucas. I think we are supposed to feel Lizzie's horror when Charlotte marries Mr C, because we understand that Lizzie is young and idealistic, but I'm not sure we are supposed to share Lizzie's view. Older and more worldly-wise contemporary readers, in particular, would probably have thought that Charlotte made a wise choice and did quite well out of it. Mr Collins is very annoying, but he loves her (evidenced by the letter from him that Mr Bennet receives towards the end) and at least he would have been out of the house a lot of the time, sucking up to Lady Catherine.

Contemporary readers would have been well aware of how appalling marriage could be for women, with no protection from abuse and no property of their own. Being married to a loving and financially secure husband, albeit a fucking irritating one, was better than probably 90% of women at the time could expect. Ditto Mr Bennet. It's phenomenally anachronistic to see Bennet marriage as abusive, as a PP suggests. Yes, Mr Bennet is a bit of a tool, but contemporary women could be horse-whipped, raped and robbed by their husbands with no redress and with no prospect of divorce. Mrs Bennet has a lovely house, healthy children and only a mildly sarcastic husband. By Regency standards, she was #winning.

I believe that even if the Bennets were very rich, Mrs Bennet would still be grasping at every potential husband that comes along.

He had hoped for a son who could legally inherit and who would allow his mothers and 5 sisters to stay at home

I don't think it's just about them being able to stay at home. We are told that Longbourn generates £2000 a year, which is about £125,000 today. So the owner wouldn't be super-rich, but would definitely be able to give the Bennet sisters a marriage portion (dowry). As soon as Mr Bennet dies, this income passes to Mr Collins, hence Mrs Bennet's anxiety to marry them off quick. If the Bennets had had a son, though, there would have been no rush - he could have given them dowries at any stage.

For example, I'm not sure Austen expected her readers to feel sorry for Charlotte Lucas.

No, and in fact Lizzy, despite herself being repelled by Mr Collins, doesn't feel Charlotte 'asks to be pitied' when she visits Rosings -- she's enjoying her comparative independence, having her own household, and has arranged the house and their lives intelligently to minimise unnecessary contact between the spouses.

I think Austen expects us to think that Charlotte has acted practically, for a woman who says she' was never romantic' and knows her own strictly limited value on the marriage market (plain, clever, 'old'), and has made the best of her circumstances.

Remember Austen herself nearly made a not-dissimilar decision. Harris Bigg-Wither, unattractive younger brother to two friends of hers, asked her to marry him while she was staying with them on a visit, and she accepted at first but then changed her mind overnight and left precipitately at dawn the next morning.

Definitely no love there, but she would have had a home of her own, and been able to offer her widowed mother and sister a home. At this stage, after Mr Austen's death, Jane, Cassandra and their mother were on a semi-permanent round of long visits to family and friends on a minimal income, with lots of waiting around for someone to be available to move them onto the next house -- it was the big period of non-production in JA's writing career before her brother gave them Chawton Cottage.

I really disagree that Mrs Bennet only wanted to marry her daughters off in order to have married daughters and bask in the glow. She was nowhere near as dizzy as she may have come across. She pretended not to understand the entail but she knew full well what the death of her husband would mean to her and her daughters if they were not safely married off.

The only reason she is happy about Lydia's marriage is because otherwise her reputation would have been completely destroyed and she would never have been able to get married. Probably not even be able to get a job as a Governess or ladies companion.

Spudlet - interesting article, thanks!

I believe that even if the Bennets were very rich, Mrs Bennet would still be grasping at every potential husband that comes along.

Deadringer - impending poverty is the whole reason for her panicked behaviour. Would she even have had so many children if she were not trying for a boy? (there have always been contraceptives of varying effectiveness).

It's like saying 'in speed, I bet the driver would have driven like that even if there weren't a bomb'. The central ticking timebomb is the shadow of poverty.

It is a while since I read the book, but I'm sure it is stated that Mrs Bennet and her daughters will not be left with no money at all or destitute. Each of the daughters have about 1,000 invested which should allow them basic support, just not what they are used to. More money should have been saved, but extravagant spending by Mrs Bennet, which Mr Bennet was unable to stop, prevented this. It is stated that he wished he'd tried harder, and was aware of the situation, but believed they would probably have a son. Elizabeth and Jane could probably become governesses, and this is the situation facing Jane Fairfax, who does appear to have almost no money at all (her was due to being raised with her father's Colonel's daughter) but it would not be vital

Charlotte makes an extremely good marriage with Mr Collins. He may not set the world alight but he will inherit Longbourne, has a good position in society. I think Charlotte knows his character well and believes that she will be able to mould him to be less gauche and grovel less over time.

I love Charlotte and I think that she and Mr Collins live companionly and even happily together. Perhaps they don't, but I like to think they do

Am I the only one to love the fact that someone at MNHQ (Hebe) is wasting time MNing commenting on threads when they should probably be troll-hunting or something?

Each of the daughters have about 1,000 invested which should allow them basic support, just not what they are used to

That only generated 4% at the time though (according to Austen) so £40 a year - about £2500 in today's terms. They wouldn't have starved, but they would have been in extremely reduced circumstances, and they would never have married into the middle class.

OP I don't even need to read your post to say YANBU. I've always thought this, right from when I was first read it as a teen, that it was sooooo unfair that Mrs B was painted as the irritating superficial one whilst Mr B was all cool and chill and follow your heart. Middle class men could afford to follow their hearts because their futures were secure. Women not so much.

I highly recommend the book The Other Bennet Sister, which retells P&P from Mary’s point of view and takes her well beyond, after her sisters are all married and Mr Bennet is dead. It’s really well written. The whole “you have delighted us enough” scene is quite pivotal.

I always thought Mr Bennet was a “well I’m alright” type, once he’s dead it’s not his problem anymore.

1000 was actually more than Jane Austen herself had (she was supported by her father, and then a small allowance from her brothers, and eventually the use of Chawton Cottage from her brother Edward Knight) and Harris Bigg Wither appears to have proposed. Nevertheless, she turned him down, if possibly after thinking about it for a night, and it was never officially announced. Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill are also secretly engaged, despite her lack of any funds at all, but his difficult mother prevents it being announced. After her death they do marry. Being left comparatively poor would have made it more difficult, but certainly not impossible, for the Bennet sisters to marry into the middle class.

extravagant spending by Mrs Bennet, which Mr Bennet was unable to stop, prevented this. It is stated that he wished he'd tried harder, and was aware of the situation, but believed they would probably have a son.

As a man, in those days he had 100% control of the finances. The things she bought dresses etc. were not what made a dent. Things like carriages, more servants were things he enjoyed too and could absolutely veto. An account at the butchers ordering streaks instead of mince was not enough to put a dent in an income of £125k in today's money, living in a mortgage free house.

He was the one who would have had the authority to go to solicitors or bankers or whoever to set up investment trusts and secure income for his widow and daughters but he just never bothered.

Mrs Bennet would have had 0 ability to do that herself as before the Married Women's property Act in essence apart from very narrow exceptions they owned nothing.

Read the book. Mr Bennet could probably have stopped Mrs Bennet's sending if he had really wanted to, but unwisely he doesn't. Pride and Prejudice was written before the Married Woman's Property Act, and I am aware of that, but most men did not control every aspect of their wife's spending. And actually it is Lady Catherine de Burgh who tries to stop Elizabeth's Marriage to Darcy, on the basis that she is middle class and has unfortunate connections (and also possibly that she could still arrange a marriage with her daughter). Jane Austen has flawed and misbehaving men and women.

I've always thought this but thought maybe there was something I wasn't getting so kept quiet

In fact some of her women remind me of being on Mumsnet. Probably should take a break for my mental health.

Oh yes, I couldn’t agree more. Drives me crazy when adaptations present her as a monster (cough, Alison Steadman) and Mr B as a sensible fellow. Her behaviour is desperate but it’s in response to a desperate situation.

Lady Catherine is a brilliant character, and the dialogue in her late scene with Lizzie in the “prettyish patch” of garden” is too. Liked the BBC version of it the best.

One day I hope to say “I send NO compliments to your mother. I am most seriously displeased” and whizz off in a horse drawn carriage.

Being left comparatively poor would have made it more difficult, but certainly not impossible, for the Bennet sisters to marry into the middle class

So it would make more sense to get them married while they can still afford expensive clothes, maids to help them look good, still healthy looking from good food, can still afford to go on jollies here there and everywhere.

Much more difficult to do living on £50 per week and I don't blame her for not saying it's 'better to find love' because literally every single person in their class married for strategic reasons. If you were a spare son, or wealthy daughter you had more freedom to choose who you fancied from a 'reasonable' selection.

As you said Jane lived on pretty much the equivalent of the dole, but she had a wealthy brother. A more distant relation like an uncle or cousin would not prioritise helping you in the way a brother would. Yes, it is Mrs Bennet's brother, but also five nieces.

"One day I hope to say “I send NO compliments to your mother. I am most seriously displeased” and whizz off in a horse drawn carriage."

I hope you get your wish Dozer

I liked the Lady Catherine from the Greer Garson, Laurence Oliver movie version best. Everything else I prefer in the BBC version.

Lady Catherine reminds me of my late mother in law. She often used to ask me “And how is your mother?” and I couldn’t get the image of her in a large bonnet out of my mind 😂

Elsie’s Attic have a “Book lovers Collection” at the moment, I covet this one greatly:

www.elsiesattic.co.uk/product/navy-obstinate-headstrong-girl-jane-austen-sweatshirt/

Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill are also secretly engaged, despite her lack of any funds at all, but his difficult mother prevents it being announced

That's fiction, though (and yes, I know P&P is too )

I've blocked out the plot of Emma, because it's so irritating, so I can't remember if Frank has any siblings but, in real life, marrying a woman with no/little money had a knock-on effect on the marriageability of a man's siblings, because it reduced the money that could be settled on them (girls) or eventually inherited by the boys. So marrying a woman without money was seen as a dick move - the groom was fucking over his siblings' prospects for life. It also affected the life prospects of the couple's children: if a woman brought her own money to the marriage, she wouldn't' need to be supported by the family money after death (a dower), so the money could go the children of the marriage instead, improving their marriage prospects .

So I think Mrs Bennet's anxiety to marry off the girls was perfectly reasonable. They might not have starved after Mr B's death, but they would have been penniless poor relations and an Emma-style happy ending would have been unlikely