To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

Thank you @porcupineinwaiting

Bflatmajorsharp. Thank you for clarifying, I hope I didn't cause any offence to anybody.

What we are truly doing in the act of abortion: a list

We are also killing a living being. I didn’t see that on your list.

Now, I am pro-choice. I also make decisions that result in death all the time. I eat meat and I have a large carbon footprint. I also buy things that I know involve child or forced labour somewhere in the supply chain.

I only point this out to say that we have to make hard decisions sometimes that compromise the life of others, to keep our society functioning optimally (for lack of a better word).

We have this choice. This choice can result in certain death. And as society currently stands, it is a very necessary one.

But let’s not airbrush things.

Yes, not yet born, not yet a person in law but we are certainly removing that thing and if it is "alive" (whatever that means when it is still part of its mother) then we kill it in abortion and many people are happy to do so and think that is the best choice.

There is a narrative around testing for down syndrome in the same sentence as patau/Edward's when the outcome for the latter two is 100% infant death (or 99.99%) while for down syndrome the outcome is far more variable.

The testing leaflets also dont capture other syndromes and conditions which rarer individually but collectively account for many. rett syndrome for example. With much more severe issues generally than high functioning down syndrome.

I naively thought "no trisomy" meant no issues. Duh....

I think now there may be slightly more awareness of other chromosome disorders like digeorge (
Again hugely varied outcome) and you can have nipt look at microdeletions/microduplications.

Nothing to test for severe ASD etc except when clear gene link identified.

Notdowns is not a guarantee of a child with no issues.

So I do understand the "why single out down syndrome " discussion. And the call for more awareness of "good" outcomes....As it has such varied outcome. With potential for a relatively good outcome. Look at Facebook ollie and cameron. A person with LD can have a good life with support.

But right to decide is for individuals.
Termination can be for heart condition etc or the risk that DS foetus is the lower functioning. Or because of worries about support. Whatever. No one is aborting a high functioning baby...well because you will never know. You just not taking the risk. That is your right.

Pineapplepower do you think that emotive language adds anything to the discussion?

I don't think it does, whether you believe that life begins before conception (aka those again the MAP) or at the point at which a baby is born.

'Killing' in the legal sense can only be done towards a human being ie a 'person' (to use the terminology of the 1861 Offences again the person Act). Not a fetus.

It's all very well saying "look at Facebook". No one is denying that thankfully some people with Downs have a good life. But my colleague whose daughter died in heart surgery doesn't have a Facebook page detailing the funeral, her other child's breakdown etc. The woman I know who cares for her 30-something non-verbal , self-harming, doubly-incontinent little brother with 3hrs respite per week doesn't have time to see her grandchildren, never mind post a Facebook collage.

So when we had to decide whether to roll those dice, Facebook wasn't going to be particularly useful.

Also, it's ok. I knew I was killing my son. You don't need to remind us. I was only intercepting the inevitable and imminent due to his heart and organ abnormalities, but thanks for sticking the knife in again.

Everyone who has a tfmr knows what they are losing.

I hate this fucking pathetic ,hateful narrative that women don't know what they're doing. That they are so shallow, frivolous, whimsical and irrational that they could go through a pregnancy and decide on a whim at 30/35/40 weeks/on the due date/at the induction appt that actually they don't actually want a baby anymore.
That making a heartbreaking so called choice to prevent further harm and pain to their baby is not knowing what they're doing.
That making a decision about their own body and life should come with regulations,limits,timescales (that get attacked and attempt are constantly made to make them even stricter)because they obviously don't know what they're doing.

We are not brainless incubators. We never were.

Thank you @PanicAndRun

Killing' in the legal sense can only be done towards a human being ie a 'person' (to use the terminology of the 1861 Offences again the person Act). Not a fetus

Legalese aside, I consider meat murder, but I still eat it, iyswim.

Killing can be a kindness, as we recognise with euthanasia. To bring someone into this world only to suffer is a cruelty.

"...Look at Facebook ollie and cameron. A person with LD can have a good life with support

Facebook Ollie might have a very different life in 5-10 years time. Especially when his needs change or simply the money rus out or maybe he looses his parents. Who can guarantee that lifetime of support?

No one can guarantee anything. Nor for anyone . Whether it s a choice or not. Disease dementia accidents undiagnosed syndrome ...anything can happen to require life long care.

It s ok to make choices pre birth based on the info available. That choice should be available.

But there are no guarantees and society still needs to find a way to provide for people with long term issues whether they were born thru choice or they had no choice.

society still needs to find a way to provide for people with long term issues

Yes it definitely does, but until it does women who don't trust themselves to cope with a disabled child(if the baby is even compatible with life) or society to look after them, they should have a choice to terminate when possible.

Absolutely. But let's also stop the constant narrative that women have tfmrs because they "can't cope". That's one of only many reasons. Not wanting to risk your child having a poor quality of life is another.

Fair enough I'll own up to that. I guess I used cope as short hand for those many reasons, but I see where you are coming from.

Thanks. Admittedly I'm sensitive about it, but it sometimes feels like yet another judgement!

When I had my abortion many years ago in a different,poor country with a disastrous history of outcomes in orphanages I had it because I wouldn't have been allowed to keep the baby( whether I would've done a good job or not fuck knows) and I couldn't cope with the idea that my baby might end up abused,neglected,starved or dying in an orphanage like many others.

That's why sometimes I use cope as shorthand to encompass everything from the literal meaning of coping in day to day life (emotionally,physically,mentally) with a baby disabled or not to not coping with the thought of them being in pain,harmed etc.

Hope it explains it a bit and apologies, I have no judgement for you or any woman that had tfmr just

It is all so sad. There will be a time when we as a society will see what we are truly doing in the act of abortion. That day will be devastating, even for those who have never had one

There is nothing sad about women having bodily autonomy
We are not slaves to our uteri
Whats devastating is the erosion of women's rights to bodily autonomy

Thank you @PanicAndRun, but really no need to apologise at all.

It is all so sad. There will be a time when we as a society will see what we are truly doing in the act of abortion. That day will be devastating, even for those who have never had one

No. We won't ever go back to the days of abortion being illegal, and woman forced into the back street dangerous abortion by knitting needle.

Think of the women in Ireland who are forced to travel to obtain abortion (this may have changed recently).

Back in the day before modern medicine many mum's and infants died during pregnancy and childbirth.
Do you really want to go back to that?

What about the poorly babies who haven't developed properly who will died shortly after birth?

What about the little ones who'll always need medical care? Is that really kind to never leave a hospital ward?

If a dog can't get out of bed. You'd have it pts. It would be seen as quality of life has gone and that's the kindest act.

If a human can't get out of bed, the end up with catheters, bedpans, fed via a tube, suffer to the end, is that really the kindest act?
One day we'll catch on.

I dont feel nearly as bad about all those lives that may have been as I do about those that are born and get to live short, miserable lives in horrific circumstances tbh. There are worse things than not being born and the tragedy is that so many are preventable.

I'm talking about war and famine and poverty and abuse, in case that wasnt clear.

If I was pregnant with a disabled fetus I would definitely have an abortion personally. There's nothing wrong with having an abortion for any reason, the only time someone shouldn't have an abortion is if they're being pressured into it

"If a dog can't get out of bed. You'd have it pts. It would be seen as quality of life has gone and that's the kindest act.
If a human can't get out of bed, the end up with catheters, bedpans, fed via a tube, suffer to the end, is that really the kindest act?
One day we'll catch on."

Really?
Abortion and tfmr is one thing...pregant woman decides ...her body her life

Euthanasia is a different debate entirely.
Who decides?