To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

The Nazis perpetrated a system of government discrimination and oppression, they directly persecuted minorities.

In the case of abortion, the government is hands off, leaving the decision in the hands of individual women, who are given the freedom to make choices in regards to their own bodies and own lives.

It’s not the fucking same on any level.

is that the government are discriminating against people with disabilities

Disabled people do face discrimination. Abortion isn’t one of the ways they do.

I said : discriminating against people with disabilities, is something the nazis did. And that is what the UK government is doing

Not in your first post you didnt, not a mention of the government

You did however clarify it later

No you didn’t. You said killing people with disabilities is what the Nazis did. That’s why your post was deleted presumably.

I don’t disagree that the government discriminate against disabled people but not in the application of the abortion law

@angell84

You said:

On the other hand, I had an awful thought, remembering that the Nazis in world war two, used to kill off all of the weak and disabled people in hospitals. They saw them as worth less. Is this any different?

.

Yes really.

The Nazis killed of weak and disabled people.

As Heidi says, we are also saying that disabled people are worth less than other oeople.

That is her whole argument.

I see the correlation.

.

You didn't mention the government until after people pulled you up on what you were saying. The government doesn't decide on which foetuses are aborted - that's down to the individual women so your comments wouldn't make sense if they were referring to the government

And everything that I said, came from love.

If I could describe myself on this thread.

I have a friend with a Down syndrome child, and I love her so much. And I did start off on this thread wanting to protect her and support her and the Down syndrome community, and feeling outraged about the discrimination.

Then, listening to some of the mothers on here, my heart opened to their side of it, and how terribly heartbreaking it is for them. And the suffering that they go through. And should I really be speaking , when I haven't carried a disabled child. Or been through that terrible pain or choice.

We can all develop as we go along.

So I apologise for my nazi references

@angell84 I think it's very big of you to hold your hands up and apologise.

You’re taking things personally that aren’t. That you love your friend and that Heidi’s family love her is not relevant to abortion law.

I’ve got a son with autism and people have said if they could screen for autism they would abort if their baby had it and I know people who haven’t had more children because they didn’t want to risk having one with autism. Do I take that personally or think people don’t think my son has value? No I don’t. In fact I see their point. I adore my son and he’s “high functioning” but life is much harder for him than my other NT child and I do worry at how he’s going to cope with adult life. I can’t imagine my life without him now but if he could have been diagnosed in the womb? I just don’t know.

What are the statistics on full term terminations does anyone know?

WTF has the Nazis got to do with it?
The killed thousands just because they could. I at a push you could say those who were killed as soon as they entered the concentration camps had a marginally easier time than those who were spared but worked and starved to death in the concentration camps.

@TARSCOUT

Abortions over 24 weeks account for 0.1% of abortions in England and Wales for 2018. I can't find stats for specific weeks gestation after 24 weeks. So all I can assume for full term terminations is a maximum figure of

Thank you.

@PointlessAddict I agree. My son has autism and I would seriously consider an abortion if I got pregnant again and you could screen for it. Does that mean that I don't believe my son's life has value? Absolutely not. He is an amazing child and he brings so much to my life and to others' lives. But it's all very well saying this about a four year old in a loving family with a stay at home parent and a supportive school.

I can imagine a scenario where he finds something that he excels at and manages to carve out a little piece of the world where he can be productive and independent feel safe and happy. I can also imagine a world where he ends up in residential care at 50 and can't communicate well enough to tell anyone if he is abused. I don't blame anybody who doesn't want to take the risk.

i think it's very big of you to hold your hands up and apologise

Yep

The Nazi party was not in favour of women's rights and emancipation, not even women they saw as good Germans without a spot of 'undesirableness' in their ancestry.

I think it’s absolutely disgusting that others think they have any right to decide for others what those can do with their own bodies.

Good for Heidi that she’s happy and leading her best life but that gives her nor anyone else the right to decide for others that they have to bring a disabled baby into this world against their will.
The entitlement of some people to think they have the right to force their norms down others throats is truly revolting.

Thanks Angell84 i didnt see your apology!

Mind you there are some bloody awful views expressed on this thread on the other side too - that it's morally wrong not to abort a disabled foetus unless you promise not to rely on benefits. Fascist shite that should be stamped on just as hard.

Angel I really admire it when someone opens their mind in this way to see the other side. It’s a rare quality these days as most are just concerned with ‘winning’ the argument, rather than trying to sympathise with someone else’s view.

@Honeybee85 but this isn't really Heidi is it, although she is clearly able to lead an independent life etc, she does not have the cognitive ability to understand the complexities of the argument and is being used as a pawn, much like greta thunberg

Rubyroost, although she is clearly able to lead an independent life etc, she does not have the cognitive ability to understand the complexities of the argument and is being used as a pawn,

Do you think Heidi is really able to live independently?
Do you think she has the cognitive abilities to run her own house, sort insurances, bills etc without getting ripped off?

Do you think she has the cognitive abilities to run her own house, sort insurances, bills etc without getting ripped off?

Turn door knockers away confidently, not fall for the Microsoft/Accident/HMRC scam calls that are so rampant nowadays.

My aunt and uncle are both fairly mildly learning disabled and can run a house independently for the most part, but they have always needed help with finances and other more emotionally /mentally taxing things. I mean, they couldn't confidently confront a tradesman if they weren't happy with the work carried out. They haven't got the cognitive ability to stand up for their rights in the workplace.

It's really not straight forward.

I think it's definitwky possible that she can learn to do most of the everyday household chores and budgetting and I think this is a learnt skill which can be passed on. No doubt she will get support with other stuff. But on the whole I'd say she can live an independent life.
Tackling the complexities of such an ethical issue, on the other hand requires more complex cognitive skills and I'm not sure she has the capacity to really understand.

Thank you for your apology angel.

I'm glad that this thread has opened your mind to the material realities of these terrible situations for women.

With the best will in the world, I don't think what Heidi can do or needs help with is relevant.

She is alive and perfectly entitled to her point of view and I hope that she lives a full and happy life.

That doesn't give her the right to interfere in other women's pregnancy choices, and this right shouldn't belong to anyone.