AIBU to ask ‘what would make you go vegan’?

[Bastetcat]

Tangentially inspired by another thread, I wonder if there are specific obstacles standing in the way of people choosing to go vegan, and if so what they are?

I tend to presume that if perfect, indistinguishable replicas for meat / dairy / eggs etc could be created then virtually everyone would go vegan, but I would be interested in finding out if that’s actually the case!

Those of you taken in by The Game Changers might want to read this article which shows just how misleading the whole thing was.

Thank you @BIWI - I felt I'd rather push back against a friend who harped on about this as they refused to look at the criticism.

My 14yo DD is a vegan leaning vegetarian and the 4 nights out of 7 she is with my I cook largely vegan meals because they’re quicker and easier. She doesn’t like a lot of the meat substitutes - Linda McCartney products and the more modern versions, and to me they all taste like chewed rubber, but we do a lot of stuff with beans and lentils, and choose a lot of dinners like pasta with olives and sun dried tomatoes, and rice with chickpea curry, etc. However, when she is with her dad, I occasionally enjoy a really good steak, or a proper homemade lasagne, or a takeaway chicken curry, because they are lovely. Nothing processed comes even close to the simplicity of a great steak, a simple salad with balsamic and Parmesan shavings, and a hunk of crusty bread.

Gamechangers basically promotes eating vegetables. Hardly new information.

For me personally I don't think it will ever happen - I have struggled with anaemia all my life, have very high iron needs compared to many, it seems, or perhaps poor absorption, not clear. Eating red meat and eg dark chicken meat etc a couple of times a week, along with other vegan sources in my diet, means I can manage through gentle supplementation rather than full on hard core iron pills that upset my stomach. I am also genetically predisposed to osteoporosis and most proper research out there indicates that dairy is an important source of calcium and vitamin d. However, I don't eat meat/fish for both meals in a day, I bulk out mince dishes with lentils and generally eat only higher welfare meat and dairy and try to source locally whenever possible. I personally think there is a balance to be had - I wouldn't claim to get it perfect though!

Nothing. I'm not convinced it's healthy or environmentally friendly. How do we fertilise the fields without all the cows and other animals?

I was veggie, almost vegan until I was badly ill and my dietician got me onto bone broths and some meat. I don't like the ethics of eating meat but I feel so much healthier when i eat meat than when I don't.

Nothing.

I love the taste and have no moral issues with slaughtering animals for food.

Higher welfare for who though?. Not the animals, they are pushed in to the slaughter houses right next to the rest of them.

The hens with their happy eggs? She will still be slaughtered at 72 weeks. The surplus male chicks? Still thrown alive into blenders.

The dairy cows? Their male offspring will still be removed and slaughtered. The females may be luckier? They will still be sexually assaulted by farmers to impregnate them. (They cannot consent to the farmer putting his arm up their backsides) and will be destined the same fate as their mothers were until their supply depletes and they are then slaughtered.

The pigs? The few (even in uk) that have a certain amount of freedom (90%of pigs in UK will never see the sun until they are put on the slaughter trucks) will still be gassed.

Humane/high welfare/red tractor are to make us feel better, not them.

I've been a vegetarian for about 10 years but it's only started becoming popular where I live in the last few years, and only in supermarkets. When I goto a restaurant here I usually have to eat the same boiled tasteless vegetables every single time. So I imagine if I went vegan I would never get to eat in a restaurant again unless things drastically changed. So to answer your question, I would go vegan in a heartbeat if my country kept up with the times and vegan food became more available.

The females may be luckier? They will still be sexually assaulted by farmers to impregnate them. (They cannot consent to the farmer putting his arm up their backsides)

Oh come on, farmers sexual assault cows? Ridiculous!
(Also, you don't impregnate a cow by shooting sperm up it's backside).

I quit for my health first and foremost, followed by an urge to assist the environmental - I'm asthmatic and since quitting meat, my asthma is virtually non-existent despite being a keen runner and HIIT fan.

I also have a very strong history of colorectal and stomach cancer in my family so would like to mitigate the risk as best I can.

That being said, I am not vegan, because veganism is much more than what people eat, and extends to far more areas in a persons life.

I eat a plant based diet, so eat loads of vegetables, salads, oatmeal with fruit, whole meal or lentil pasta with pesto, baked tofu bits etc. I don't now, nor will I ever eat a lentil curry and I fucking hate chickpeas 😁 But I do closely track my macros so I get enough protein and carbs for my strength training, and I only very rarely eat an impossible burger.

For me, there is no incentive to eat the fake meat on a regular basis as my focus is gut health, which vegan cheese doesn't really contribute to.

But I totally understand why folk would want vegan meats, just because a person becomes a vegan, it doesn't mean they forget how much they love the taste of meat 🙄 I don't miss meat at the moment, but me not eating meat for 6 months and then eating my mum's roast lamb on Easter Sunday is better than me eating meat 6 days a week like I was when I was on a keto diet...

I think anything that can help bring awareness to animal welfare and sustainable farming globally is a good thing, but ultimately we as humans, have so many varied approaches to what can keep us healthy. One size does not fit all.

Struggling to get this to load, apologies if posted multiple times.

Clean the cow’s vulva with a paper towel and put on a full-arm glove and lubricant.

Insert your arm into the cow, by forming a cone with your fingers while keeping the tail aside with your other hand.

Gently work out any excess dung and if the rectum becomes distended with gas or the cow strains excessively, withdraw the arm and consider re-serving a few hours later.

The cow must be relaxed during the procedure to avoid injury, as the rectum wall is a delicate structure.

If the bladder is full, wait and try again once the cow has urinated

Farmers Weekly

If I could feed everyone in my family the same meals, or if I only had myself to feed! The current combination of needs and preferences is so complicated, and I hate cooking. The prospect of making it even harder does not appeal.

DH loves meat. He will occasionally have a meat-free dinner, but he is fussy so there aren't many vegan offerings I can give him.

One kid is mostly vegan for medical reasons, but also cannot eat much of the lentilly beanfeast which is the staple of most normal vegan diets. She has some prescription food which helps.

Other kid is vegan, but realises it's hard for the person doing the cooking and is therefore quite willing to tolerate small amounts of meat and dairy for the sake of my convenience.

I'll eat whatever. I like meat but could give it up. I have cut way back on it for environmental reasons. Beans and lentils do give me the bellyache, but I know there are ways to tackle that.

The reason I could never go vegan is that it is a belief system with lots of quite sanctimonious people in the sect

I often eat vegetarian, or vegan meals (as I like veg and pulses) but I also eat meat and dairy.

My oldest teen eats vegetarian now, and am not sure how to get enough iron into him without supplements. Glad he is not vegan (yet)

Personally I find zealous people who try to convert others to their beliefs system tedious company. I have met quite a few Jehova’s witnesses in my life (a teacher who tried to convert us on a school trip, a colleague and a neighbour) and I just don’t like being preached at

I see no problem with eating most meats (don’t eat pork and battery chickens, but everyone can make these choices for themselves), I buy half a lamb every year from the farmer down the road, it is very local, very delicious, very nutritious, totally free range.

Nothing. I enjoy meat and don't feel satisfied after a meal without it, no matter how tasty. I also don't think it's healthy to have a diet without meat based iron or B vitamins as plant based is not easily absorbed.

I am sceptical about the environmental concerns.

I could give up dairy, though as I don't really like it. I eat very little as it is.

I would never describe any vegetable as delicious!

I eat them because I have to, to be healthy but it’s a chore. If that’s all I had to eat I’d be so miserable!

Dairy alternatives that don’t rely on palm oil and extensive, ecologically damaging one crops that require deforestation.

Been vegetarian for twenty years, love vegan food but, despite the UN findings, I find it difficult to support an industry that is also environmentally damaging.

Instead, I eat local, seasonal produce as much as possible, and am currently happy that my carbon footprint is 50% of the national average.

Regarding the environmental impact of livestock, 86% of what they are fed is inedible to humans (stats from the FAO - see here. Cows convert grass - which we cannot digest - into high quality protein. they provide manure for arable crops.

OP has linked to a Guardian article about livestock. I am suspicious about the impartiality of anything about farming printed by the Guardian, since it has taken $1.8million from the Open Philanthropy Project to write about farm animal welfare over four years (and article a week is I think the deal). The OPP looks to do a lot of good in some fields, but it has a very strong animal rights agenda, given some of the bodies it has awarded grants to. Animal rights is NOT the same as animal welfare. Animal rights is the belief that we should own, eat or use animals in any way (except possibly to save human lives, but even that appears to be debated). So no pets, no livestock, no captive breeding programmes for endangered species, no horseriding.

So the Guardian getting on board with that makes me doubt the balance in any article it publishes about rural affairs.

Sorry haven’t RTFT. I have many reasons, some important some not, but my main ones are:

1. I cook for the whole family, including DH and DD who are fussy eaters. I cook healthy meals from scratch and have worked bloody hard to find the 8 or so meals we will all eat. Some of these could be adapted, but even that would be a fight. I could cry at the thought of having to start from scratch.

1. I knew a women about 20 years ago who described herself as an “ethical eater” which took into account suffering and environmental impact. Her basic diet was best described as vegan, but she would eat the rabbits her boyfriend shot, eggs from their rescued hens, etc. My bar would be set a lot lower than hers, but I would aim for this over straight veganism. I am already gravitation towards it (buy local where possible, buy meat from friends’ farms in bulk and store in chest freezer, eat eggs from our/neighbour’s rescued hens, prep and freeze the pheasants my FIL shoots, etc. Much easier when you live rurally of course!) Yes, there is still a lot of avoidable suffering, but I suppose I am comfortable with that.

@Userpompom have you tried nomo bars? Available in asda or tesco. Have you tried vegan galaxy from Tesco?

One of the recent things thats pushing me towards being vegan is an expose on a farm we buy eggs from

We try and buy local, high welfare and sustainable. Dont support battery farming etc and have been buying higher priced, rspca assured free range eggs. One with a picture of a man and a chicken, from a traceable farm. We felt alright about our choice

Its turned out those hens were kept in awful conditions. Its made me really doubtful that its possible to be able to assure the origins of your food even if you try

Equally i worry about all the food we buy with untraceable egg etc in it. I wouldnt buy battery eggs but can i tell what kind of egg is in my pasta, cakes or noodles?

OP YANBU but mumsnet is generally anti vegan and these type of threads don’t tend to go well.

@Fallofrain you’re absolutely right, if you look up what RSPCA Assured means it even includes pulling living fetuses from slaughtered cows and killing them by blunt force trauma, it includes gassing and shredding male chicks.

Do you need any help to go vegan?

Also many feel local or grass fed animals will be better for the climate than plant foods transported but the studies show this isn’t true as most greenhouse gas emissions are generated at the production, not the transport stage:

pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es702969f

“, “buying local” could achieve, at maximum, around a 4−5% reduction in GHG emissions due to large sources of both CO2 and non-CO2 emissions in the production of food. Shifting less than 1 day per week’s (i.e., 1/7 of total calories) consumption of red meat and/or dairy to other protein sources or a vegetable-based diet could have the same climate impact as buying all household food from local providers.”

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181023110627.htm

“A new study provides a more comprehensive accounting of the greenhouse gas emissions from EU diets. It shows that meat and dairy products are responsible for the lion's share of greenhouse emissions from the EU diet.”

“The study found that meat and dairy account for more than 75% of the impact from EU diets. That's because meat and dairy production causes not only direct emissions from animal production, but also contributes to deforestation from cropland expansion for feed, which is often produced outside of the EU.”

“"People tend to think that consuming locally will be the solution to climate change, but it turns out that the type of product we eat is much more important for the overall impact," says IIASA researcher Hugo Valin, a study coauthor and Sandström's YSSP advisor. "Europeans are culturally attached to meat and dairy product consumption.”

science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

“Today, and probably into the future, dietary change can deliver environmental benefits on a scale not achievable by producers. Moving from current diets to a diet that excludes animal products (table S13) (35) has transformative potential, reducing food’s land use by 3.1 (2.8 to 3.3) billion ha (a 76% reduction), including a 19% reduction in arable land; food’s GHG emissions by 6.6 (5.5 to 7.4) billion metric tons of CO2eq (a 49% reduction); acidification by 50% (45 to 54%); eutrophication by 49% (37 to 56%); and scarcity-weighted freshwater withdrawals by 19% (−5 to 32%) for a 2010 reference year.”

Nothing. I don't believe veganism is good for the environment. Too much processing and food miles.