Page 18 | To think checkout lady was being OTT about alcohol and child?

Potkettlexx · 2020-02-20T15:02:11+00:00

In supermarket yesterday with DD 7. DD struggles at school so I let her help with shopping to get her used to the concept. Bought some bread and small gift pack bottle baileys £5 for in-laws bday. Got DD to scan the gift box and the bread and press the correct buttons etc... (dd Aldo has some sensory and coordination difficulties so again it helps this doing practical things) DD wanted to pay with my card so I told her what buttons to press and gave her the card to tap on card reader. Dd didn’t really understand so I just gently took it from her and tapped my card myself. Before I took over, dd was trying and the woman supervising the self service tills piled up ‘ohh you’ll have to be the one that pats with the card’ or something to that affect. I was thinking.... for real?! I get that they need to be very careful when selling alcohol.... I get that a 15 year old can look 18.... I get that an 18 year old could be potentially buying it for younger friends.... I get that they could be disciplined if they were willingly selling alcohol to under 18’s.... But for goodness sake, surely common sense would say she really didn’t need to say that under the circumstances. After all, the reason the sale of alcohol is forbidden to under 18’s is incase they drink it and quite right. That’s not the same as the this situation. It was clearly evident I was the one ‘buying it’ and giving my consent. Does she honestly think I was planning on giving it to my 7 year old?! 🙄

Original poster

Potkettlexx · 21/02/2020 20:07

@Walking

Oh aye? Do how many parents of 5 year olds do you know that give them alcohol in a controlled environment?!

So you think that’s ok do you? You think it’s totally reasonable?

🙄

OP posts:

CityofTsars · 21/02/2020 20:08

I agree that your annoyance is misdirected at the cashier herself and the law does have to draw a clear and distinct line somewhere but yes of course you're right that common sense has to play a part in this sort of thing!

I can't conceive of the sort of busybody jobsworth who report the cashier or business for this technicality but if the report we're made to me I would be minded to inform then that they clearly don't have enough to occupy their time and give them a few items of my own To Do list to complete!

SoupDragon · 21/02/2020 20:08

Difference is under 18’s need to use knives at home as part of growing up so if course that can’t be illegal as it’s need must.

Totally irrelevant

CityofTsars · 21/02/2020 20:09

Littered with typos but you get my drift!

Original poster

Potkettlexx · 21/02/2020 20:16

@WalkingDeadTrainee

**It’s not illogical ffs. It's a safety measure.

They can drink it but it has to be provided for them. Which creates a level of control by the responsible adult. The adult then can supply only 1 small drink for example. However, should a child be allowed to legally buy it, they would have an access to dangerous uncontrolled amount. Safety and control**

Also where does that fit with the scenario a parent and say their 16 year old can’t buy alcohol together so the child has to go wait in the car? If parental control is key, why is the above an issue?

Even if the parent was planning on buying it to give to her child.... that wouldn’t be a problem according to your logic?? But it seems it is a problem as some people have expressed on here as it’s happened to them.

OP posts:

Quartz2208 · 21/02/2020 20:17

As I have said the buying/selling is a licensing issue so yes a 5 year old can drink in a private dwelling. This is covered in the Licensing Act 2003

Allowing a 5 year old to consistently drink would be seen as neglect and would be covered for example under the Children's Act 1989.

The selling/buying is your issue here and is purely Licensing based. This has to be black and white.

Original poster

Potkettlexx · 21/02/2020 20:18

@SoupDragon

That’s exactly what I would say if I was stumped with a come back 🤣

OP posts:

LolaSmiles · 21/02/2020 20:26

Also where does that fit with the scenario a parent and say their 16 year old can’t buy alcohol together so the child has to go wait in the car? If parental control is key, why is the above an issue?
There's a difference between buying alcohol for an adult who naybir may not decide to allow their child to consume alcohol in the privacy of their own home and buying alcohol FOR an underage child.

Willow2017 · 21/02/2020 20:34

I can't conceive of the sort of busybody jobsworth who report the cashier or business for this technicality but if the report we're made to me I would be minded to inform then that they clearly don't have enough to occupy their time and give them a few items of my own To Do list to complete!
I am sure if they had used an under cover agent
the licencing body or the police would just love your feedback.
😂😂😂

Quartz2208 · 21/02/2020 20:36

OP you are still seeing it in buying terms that the illegal act is the buying. But it isnt. Its the selling.

In order to sell alcohol you need a licence and the terms of that set out very clearly how you are allowed to sell it (including the hours)

So in your scenario if the parent leaves the child in the car the Licensee simply is selling alcohol to an over 18. Perfectly legal. The trickiness comes if the child is there and it is clear that it is for then because that is illegal for the seller.

So basically all the jeopardy is on the seller. They are the ones who would be fined etc.

Quartz2208 · 21/02/2020 20:43

Here is the relevant section of the Licensing Act 2003

146 Sale of alcohol to children
(1) A person commits an offence if he sells alcohol to an individual aged under 18.

Its that black and white. There is no common sense application, no wiggle room nothing.

BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou · 21/02/2020 20:56

Oh aye? Do how many parents of 5 year olds do you know that give them alcohol in a controlled environment?!

Not as young as five but mine both made their first communion at 7 years old. Sip of wine every Sunday and other Holy Day of Obligation!

Whether or not the rules are sensible isn’t the question. The FACT is that the store assistant was correct and she COULD have actually refused the sale completely but did show common sense and allow the sale. More common sense than OP has shown by her rant and clear ignorance of the laws surrounding the selling and drinking of alcohol.

WalkingDeadTrainee · 21/02/2020 20:59

I've never said it's ok to let 5 year old drink🤷

WalkingDeadTrainee · 21/02/2020 21:00

We all took few sips though

Rosebel · 21/02/2020 23:23

It doesn't matter if you think it's stupid to let a 5 year old drink at home (and I agree with you) the fact still remains no-one can sell alcohol to a 7 year old. You can use all the excuses you like but the shop assistant was totally right.

lyralalala · 22/02/2020 01:26

Also where does that fit with the scenario a parent and say their 16 year old can’t buy alcohol together so the child has to go wait in the car? If parental control is key, why is the above an issue?

Even if the parent was planning on buying it to give to her child.... that wouldn’t be a problem according to your logic?? But it seems it is a problem as some people have expressed on here as it’s happened to them.

You can’t buy it solely with the intention of giving it to the 16yo. Or on their behalf

If I buy a bottle of wine for me and give my 16yos a drink of it at home that’s fine. If I buy the wine specifically for my 16yos I’m technically breaking the law

The cases of people not being allowed a bottle of wine with their weekly shop are rare, which is why they make the news. Some stores are ultra cautious because of the fines

Oldhaggard · 22/02/2020 02:44

I think that in situations where you have unskilled workers they probably have to put these kind of rules in place. The jobs which don't require qualifications they can't really rely on workers to use their own judgement.

This attitude towards service staff is probably 95% of the actual problem when it comes to people being challenged by shop/bar staff over the purchase of alcohol in any way, shape or form - some people just can't stand to be challenged by those they see as beneath them, there to serve them and do their every bidding. And it's aided by licensing laws that put all the concequences on the people serving and none on those doing the demanding.

As another poster has asked, I wonder how many "professional" people would be willing to risk anything from a disciplinary to a prison sentence for a customer/client for something that is essentially, a leisure thing. It's not like buying alcohol is a necessity, not like anyone is going to suffer greatly or die from not getting a bottle of merlot to go with dinner. Excepting alcholics because there are other motivations at play there, the reactions to being challenged/refused the sale of alcohol are so disproportionate considering what it is you're actually buying, it's not an essential, it's not a necessity, it's not something anyone actually needs yet the way some people behave you'd think you were refusing them oxygen.

If it’s not illegal for 5 year olds to drink alcohol what’s the point in having OTT strict black and white laws that say no one under age can buy it but it’s absolutely fine for them to drink it..... no bother, full your posts technically drinking as long as they can’t be seen to be ‘buying it’ as in my OP.

It’s illogical! If it’s illegal to under age drink then what’s the point in there being a law to buy it? Why prevent it?

I totally agree with you, imo the laws have been crafted quite cleverly to make it look like something was being done and controls put in place to address underage drinking and anti social behaviour around alcohol when the laws were overhauled in 2003. When in actual fact all that's happened is all the responsibility is on the individual selling, not the one buying or drinking, but the one selling (with the exception of a proxy sale where the buyer can also be prosecuted) it's removed the personal responsibility from people buying alcohol and shoved it onto the person selling it.
But it is what it is, as someone who sells alcohol, it is illogical and ridiculous, but I'm not in a position to argue the point or change the law on it. It's just one of the things about licensing laws that make little sense -

What other laws that carry such strict penalties rely on proof being on something as inconsistent as personal perception?
Is that person 18? To me yes, to another person, no.
Is that person drunk? To me no, to the next bar server yes.
Get it wrong and you face either the wrath of someone who believes they've been gravely wronged in some way, or fall foul of the law. Great choice to have, pick your poison.
I would say that most serving understand the basic logic that the more money goes in the till, the more secure their job is. Refusing sales doesn't help that, rather the opposite really, but if it's a choice between that and potentially breaking the law, based on my perception, that may differ with another person who can deliver some harsh concequences, I take one less sale.

It is though far easier to blame the person doing the refusing, and come up with all sorts of reasons why they are the unreasonable ones, because they won't potentially lose their jobs or break the law in the name of 'customer service'.

BaolFan · 22/02/2020 07:53

I think that in situations where you have unskilled workers they probably have to put these kind of rules in place. The jobs which don't require qualifications they can't really rely on workers to use their own judgement.

What an amazingly smug, superior and elitist attitude. I'm embarrassed for you.

woodchuck99 · 22/02/2020 08:33

This attitude towards service staff is probably 95% of the actual problem when it comes to people being challenged by shop/bar staff over the purchase of alcohol in any way, shape or form - some people just can't stand to be challenged by those they see as beneath them, there to serve them and do their every bidding.

Not correct. The attitude actually makes me think that they can't do much about the rules however ridiculous as they have no impact on making them. I'm not talking about OP's situation as I think the licensing laws probably do mean the child can't tap the card. I'm talking about the belief that people would be breaking the law if they don't ID their own husbands if they're under 25 or even a license owner.

SW16 · 22/02/2020 08:34

If it’s illegal to under age drink then what’s the point in there being a law to buy it? Why prevent it

Some reasons:
The assumption that at home the child is under the supervision of an adult. Or at least an adult knows what and how much alcohol is in the home. Whereas buying it at a shop gives unsupervised access.
Because if the ethics of making a profit out of selling things that are potentially harmful to minors.
Because sales can be regulated whereas it is much harder in the domestic realm.
Because parents can take responsibility for a 12 yo to have a sip of champagne, that’s parental choice. We cannot expect / do not want sales people to make that choice on parents behalf.

The same set of laws wrt minors, illegal to buy but not illegal to use in the home, applies to glue, paracetamol, kitchen knives and other things.

And turn up at A&E with a falling down drunk 8 year old who has been given wine all night by family and see what happens. Laws of negligence etc still apply.