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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think checkout lady was being OTT about alcohol and child?

445 replies

Potkettlexx · 20/02/2020 15:02

In supermarket yesterday with DD 7. DD struggles at school so I let her help with shopping to get her used to the concept.

Bought some bread and small gift pack bottle baileys £5 for in-laws bday.

Got DD to scan the gift box and the bread and press the correct buttons etc... (dd Aldo has some sensory and coordination difficulties so again it helps this doing practical things)

DD wanted to pay with my card so I told her what buttons to press and gave her the card to tap on card reader. Dd didn’t really understand so I just gently took it from her and tapped my card myself.

Before I took over, dd was trying and the woman supervising the self service tills piled up ‘ohh you’ll have to be the one that pats with the card’ or something to that affect.

I was thinking.... for real?!

I get that they need to be very careful when selling alcohol....

I get that a 15 year old can look 18....

I get that an 18 year old could be potentially buying it for younger friends....

I get that they could be disciplined if they were willingly selling alcohol to under 18’s....

But for goodness sake, surely common sense would say she really didn’t need to say that under the circumstances.

After all, the reason the sale of alcohol is forbidden to under 18’s is incase they drink it and quite right.

That’s not the same as the this situation. It was clearly evident I was the one ‘buying it’ and giving my consent. Does she honestly think I was planning on giving it to my 7 year old?! 🙄

OP posts:

prh47bridge · 20/02/2020 23:28

Of course the tester is over 18, because if not then they are breaking the law in purchasing alcohol

No they are not breaking the law. There is a specific exemption in the law that means it is not an offence for someone under the age of 18 to buy alcohol at the request of a constable or a weights and measures inspector acting in the course of their duty. So trading standards can (and do) use under age testers, as can the police. Licensing Act 2003 149(2).

user1499113169 · 20/02/2020 23:36

I work in retail and one time working on the till I saw a mum hand her daughter her bank card asking her daughter to pay for the shopping why the mum went into another shop. Even though I witnessed this conversation I still had to refuse the school uniform wearing daughter the sale of paracetamol and e cig liquids

madcatladyofmaroc · 20/02/2020 23:37

I've run pubs for more years than I care to remember and I have actually had a Licensing test purchase similar to this. Lady came in and ordered half a lager for herself and a coke for her 15ish looking daughter. Mum then said oh I need the loo, handed a tenner to daughter who then tried to pay. I refused to complete the sale until Mum returned. I had feedback via the brewery for this as they received the letter from Licensing before I did. It was confirmed it was a staged test purchase, and it was confirmed that I was correct in my actions. Although the alcohol wasnt for the daughter, and although I had seen the Mum give kid cash, it's the actual finalising of the sale, ie accepting the cash from the daughter, and giving change, that would have been illegal as the daughter would have carried out the transaction and therefore purchased the alcohol.

It was a very crafty test purchase in both my and breweries opinion as test purchases are supposed to not entrap but nevertheless it highlighted the law over the sale and I was glad I stood firm.

Not going to rehash what's been said before about challenge 21 or 25, except to confirm that it can, more often than not, be a MANDATORY condition of the premises license and so yes absolutely has to be adhered to as the license can be suspended or withdrawn if not followed.

Willow2017 · 20/02/2020 23:42

*(apparently

You just cant help yourself can you?

No it is not. It's about how old the tester IS. Because that's where the line of the law is drawn.
Nobody is going to get into trouble for not asking an 18 year old for ID, they are 18. No law broken

If they do not look 25 and the cashier doesnt ask them for ID then they are breaking the Challenge 25 rules and WILL get into trouble at work and if seen by an undercover agent there will be repurcussions for them and the store manager and the store.

Of course the tester is over 18, because if not then they are breaking the law in purchasing alcohol!

Which part of agencies DO use underage people to test stores is difficult to understand?

madcatladyofmaroc · 20/02/2020 23:42

Wrong wording there where I said not supposed to entrap, but cant thinking the correct phrase, sorry been cooking all day for a wake buffet tomorrow and then working the bar all night so a little tired!

Of course the test purchases offer an opportunity to entrap but the point is that the purchasers used look underage, giving the seller opportunity to ID, whereas my situation (about 10 years ago for what it's worth, so they may or may not test like this anymore) was a slightly different than the usual test purchase scenario and had not been heard of by the brewery before, though it has since. They just felt at the time that it was a little bit of a grey area hence the clarification of the actual sale from the Licensing dept at the council. Hope that's a bit clearer! Edit button pls Mumsnet lol

Original poster

Potkettlexx · 20/02/2020 23:51

OMG

Slightly off topic from my OP, but I’m astounded by what I’ve just read having done a quick google....

So it says that it is NOT ILLEGAL for a child aged 5-16 to drink alcohol at home or on other private premises.

Utterly speechless 😶 ( I’m assuming some of you will be happy 😆 )

I can’t get over that it’s fine to let 5 drink. Where’s the line drawn with that? Are they allowed to get drunk....

OP posts:

Original poster

Potkettlexx · 20/02/2020 23:53

I am so shocked it’s ok to let a 5 year old drink alcohol. How on earth is that ok?!

OP posts:

woodchuck99 · 20/02/2020 23:54

The police and trading standards can use under 18s. My chain supermarket will send 18 year olds in (who could have been underage a week ago) and if they are not challenged then the cashier can get in a lot of trouble for not following policy. It's not illegal to serve them but the company take a very dim view on not checking.

Of course. I'm not suggesting it isn't company policy to ID people who look under 25. But some posters are suggesting it's the law which is incorrect.

Quartz2208 · 20/02/2020 23:59

Just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean social services won’t get involved

What it means is that letting an 8 year old have a sip of beer or wine won’t cause the police to come.

FlamingoAndJohn · 20/02/2020 23:59

So it says that it is NOT ILLEGAL for a child aged 5-16 to drink alcohol at home or on other private premises.

Yes, I know. So do the people who said this right at the beginning of the thread.
It’s the BUYING of alcohol that is illegal, not the consumption.

GabsAlot · 21/02/2020 00:01

Yes we know and what do u mean who in their right mind would let them drink

the french start them very early its quite normal there

recordbox · 21/02/2020 00:02

If they do not look 25 and the cashier doesnt ask them for ID then they are breaking the Challenge 25 rules and WILL get into trouble at work

The post wasn’t about the ‘work rules’ it was about the LAW.

and if seen by an undercover agent there will be repurcussions for them and the store manager and the store

this is seriously stretching the realms of possibility to the max to try and be correct.

woodchuck99 · 21/02/2020 00:05

It is usually a requirement of the licence to check ID. It would be entirely possible that someone from trading standards, the licensing authority or the brewery could be in the pub and witness someone selling alcohol to someone under 25 without checking ID. Saying it’s alright he’s my husband isn’t going to cut it anymore than someone swearing blind they are over 18.

Of course it's going to "cut it". They might still want to see the ID to check you aren't lying about the person being your husband and being over 18 but they wouldn't take away the license.

He told her I was older than him and had worked there a few years before but she wanted ID. Even one of the regulars said they knew I was overage but she said she couldn’t risk it (I didn’t have any ID as I don’t carry my passport so we left).

She didn't want to take the bar staff or regulars word for it. That doesn't mean she would ID her own husband or someone she had worked with in the pub for years.

Sonichu · 21/02/2020 00:35

"Which part of agencies DO use underage people to test stores is difficult to understand?"

I understand perfectly well because I worked in bookies for years and the gambling commission and the police could and would send in underagers to catch staff out. The industry also self regulates with Think 21 testers, who are people sent into shops on behalf of the company who are over the age of 18 but might not pass for 21. Staff have a grand total of EIGHT SECONDS to ID a Think 21 tester of them entering the shop regardless of them approaching the counter or not or they fail! Serving someone under the age of 18 if they have been sent in by Trading Standards etc is still illegal; the only difference is that the staff member will be on the wrong side of the law rather than the person making the purchase.

Which is why these threads piss me off, because why the fuck should anyone risk their jobs for someone's poxy bottle of cheap wine?

Seren85 · 21/02/2020 00:56

I imagine this has been said tens of times but... I worked on the checkout for years. Saw many parents who allowed the kids to do the pin (before contactless) or hand over the cash and had to refuse. With littles I would still serve the parent but not allow the little one to pay, also had to totally refuse the odd one with older teens. Your lifestyle isn't worth my job and my management would back that up.

ArnoldBee · 21/02/2020 01:21

We used scan and go the other day at Asda and had to get authorisation to buy an item to prove we were over the age of 1 year old. I really want to know where all these babies are that go shopping by themselves- it wouidbe such a time saver!

LolaSmiles · 21/02/2020 05:13

recordbox
It's not stretching things. Each shop has to have a policy for age identification as part of their licence. They have to follow that policy, otherwise what's the point in having it?
If the policy is Think 25 then they have to ID everyone they think could be under 25.

Why should anyone risk their job, a fine or even their licence (so their business) to appease the moaners who think the law exists and licence terms exist except for them and their offspring?

BadLad · 21/02/2020 05:33

Why should anyone risk their job, a fine or even their licence (so their business) to appease the moaners who think the law exists and licence terms exist except for them and their offspring?

Not exactly a risk v reward situation, is it? The store risks their licence and a fine, while the employee risks a fine and being disciplined for the reward of......the OP's child being allowed to put the card against the machine.

SW16 · 21/02/2020 06:51

If you use shopping as a learning experience why not use real world facts?

I didn’t let my kids ‘tap’ for the fun of it. They knew it is my card and very very valuable. And belongs to me and only I use it. Likewise let your Dd know that shopping for alcohol is for grown ups only.

Weigh fruit and veg, scan, pack bag, great, but giving them the facts about the world as it actually is is valuable education in itself. “No, Mummy buys the alcohol, it is against the law for the shop to allow children to do it” is a real work education.

TheSquitz · 21/02/2020 07:02

Slightly off topic, but I think that 5 year olds are permitted by law t consume alcohol at home because in the past, some medicines (suitable for children) contained alcohol so this law allows them to take it.

recordbox · 21/02/2020 07:40

It's not stretching things. Each shop has to have a policy for age identification as part of their licence. They have to follow that policy, otherwise what's the point in having it?
If the policy is Think 25 then they have to ID everyone they think could be under 25.

My comment re 'stretching things' was very specific to the poster who decided to quote something I said re law and talk about policy. The 2 are not the same. I wasn't saying people should not follow policy, I was merely discussing what is law. That poster was making a huge leap with a 'what if' when they mentioned an undercover 'agent' seeing something, not even making a test purchase.

Why should anyone risk their job, a fine or even their licence (so their business) to appease the moaners who think the law exists and licence terms exist except for them and their offspring?

Well they shouldn't. The law is there for a reason and it would be better if people just taught their kids that somethings they are not allowed to do.

Somebodystired · 21/02/2020 07:55

That’s irrelevant to the fact the goddaughter knows for sure a person is over 18 (as she was at school with them) yet still asks for ID every time. That rule is absolutely ridiculous too. Makes no sense whatsoever*

People can skip a year at school. You cannot know for absolute certain a person's age unless you see a verified form of ID.

cologne4711 · 21/02/2020 07:58

cologne4711 · 21/02/2020 08:01

They key is if they do not look over 25 and you do not challenge them then you are breaking the Challenge 25 rules

And as I've said before, who decides how old they look?

hazeyjane · 21/02/2020 08:11

I'm with @SW16 Ds also loves to help with the shopping, but I explain about the fact children can't buy certain things and mum and dad are in charge of the card.

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