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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that most people voted to leave the EU to stop freedom of movement?

476 replies

Moomin8 · 20/02/2020 12:10

The proposed new rules the government have supposedly set out that are designed to keep out 'low skilled' workers seem to me like social cleansing. Most recently , when people moan about 'immigrants' they are always talking about people from Eastern Europe in my experience.

What really annoys me is that almost all leaver voters deny repeatedly that their vote had anything to do with the fact they wanted freedom of movement stopped.

Sorry if this has been done to death. But why won't people just be honest?

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woodhill · 20/02/2020 20:09

Totally agree and not just those from the EU.

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 20/02/2020 20:12

if Cameron's government had put restrictions on immigration, the referendum result might have been different.

I thought it was Blair's government that could, but didn't. Wasn't it too late by the time Cameron was PM?

BackInTime · 20/02/2020 20:14

Let's not forget the years of drip fed anti immigrant, anti EU rhetoric in much of the British media. Governments happy to point the finger of blame at the at these convenient scapegoats to distract from their own failures. The recent deportations and announcement of the points system is just a PR exercise shows a complete lack of humanity and understanding of the needs of businesses. Well at least now they can stop blaming the EU and immigrants and they will have to own their problems.

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 20/02/2020 20:19

FOM was a big, big part of my decision to vote Leave. But my husband also voted Leave and immigration barely figures at all in his reasoning.

He is more concerned about fiscal union and that fact that we don't have one because we are not in the Euro. He doesn't want us to be in the Euro, he thinks it's going to collapse eventually and would have taken us with it, had we stayed in the EU.

LittleBoyJuly2020 · 20/02/2020 20:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bobsandbitz · 20/02/2020 20:21

I'm an EU migrant, the dreaded Eastern European. I came here 15 years ago, just as the floodgate of EU immigration started. I started as a waitress, went on to finish my studies, qualified, worked my way up and now have a very good career and a comfortable life in my adopted country. I love Britain, I always have, which is why I came here. Never even heard of your benefit system before I got here, and even then, first I heard of it was about two years in, when a local girl said - you could just get pregnant, you'll get a council flat!! I was shocked. Now I pay more tax than my British born husband or most of his family. I'm truly saddened when I hear people say nasty things about Eastern Europeans (I hate the term, even though I understand it's about where the people are from, it has a very unpleasant undertone). I've made every effort to blend in, taken on the traditions of English people and this is my home. To be honest, I've always felt uncomfortable telling people where I'm from, fearing what their opinion is on incomers - there's still a lot of nastiness about foreigners and even amongst foreigners! A delivery man delivering my furniture a couple of years ago was telling me how Eastern Europeans apparently lie about the state their furniture arrives in, so he had to take a photo of my newly delivered furniture as proof of delivery with no damage. I don't know if he realised I was one or not, but I just nodded and thought to myself what an absolute knob of a man.
Long ramble, sorry!
I will be forever grateful for all the opportunities from living here and I've used them all to further my career and proposer financially. Never once have I claimed any benefits. Always rented privately until we bought our house. Yes, granted, I use the NHS, but that's about it. Private dentist, but NHS local GP and hospital services. Yet I know British born people who have a very different attitude - claim every penny you can, work as little as you can (so you don't lose your benefits), lie about your status (single parents allowance or something??).... and those are probably the very same people who say people like me have come here to take their jobs. We're not all the same are we, whichever camp you're from. It's not that all Eastern Europeans just do cheap jobs and claim benefits, and it's a lie that all unemployed English people are desperate for the jobs taken up by EU migrants..... It probably suits them that someone is actually paying taxes so they can claim benefits.....

CherryPavlova · 20/02/2020 20:26

LittleBoyJuly2020 I’ve reported your post because it’s overtly racist and entirely unacceptable.

Mordred · 20/02/2020 20:31

"Let's not forget the years of drip fed anti immigrant, anti EU rhetoric in much of the British media"

Oh yes. The underlying anti-Polish sentiment coming from the Daily Mail and the Express used to drive me mad. Bastards.

LittleBoyJuly2020 · 20/02/2020 20:32

@CherryPavlova That's nice for you. Don't worry it's blatantly obvious this thread does not like hearing the truth.
No shock using the race card, so predictable. Not a racist bone in my body.

A sad day when people are not allowed to express facts and opinions because the pathetic 'woke' folk don't like to hear anything that goes against their grain.

luckylavender · 20/02/2020 20:33

This has been done to death on here & elsewhere. We have to live with the consequences now. But @Moomin there are lots of pepped who think this way & who make decisions based on that.

phoenixrosehere · 20/02/2020 20:38

@Troels

Please point out where I said that it was different from other countries? I was just agreeing that it was ridiculous to say non-EU immigrants take out more than they put in.

CherryPavlova · 20/02/2020 20:41

LittleBoyJuly2020 You’re not having Farage’s love child are you?

BronwenFrideswide · 20/02/2020 20:41

ginghamstarfish unfortunately there is a cohort of people, some of whom are probably on this thread, who are completely opposed to the UK applying any rules or restrictions even though these are widely used in other EU countries, they cannot, or will not, explain why it is acceptable for those countries to do it but not the UK.

I've lived in several EU countries in ALL of them I had to go through a police check, prove financial viability and then be issued with a unique identifying number, I could do nothing without that number. I could have failed the checks and would have been removed, FOM or not.

Moomin8 · 20/02/2020 20:42

@LittleBoyJuly2020 Not a racist bone in my body.

Unfortunately your posts say otherwise. And that's why the recent one was deleted though I didn't see what it said.

Attitudes like yours kind of prove my point 😐

FYI people that use terms like 'the race card' kind of stick out like sore thumbs as racists.

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Forgetfebuary · 20/02/2020 20:44

I have EE family members who came here very happily well before 2004. They said the UK gov was utterly foolish in what it did, utterly foolish.
I cannot believe we are even at a stage where anyone is debating whether what TB did was a good thing when He Himself Admits it was a mistake?

"Tony Blair has admitted he did not realise how many migrants would come to the UK when he opened Britain's borders to millions of European workers.

The former Labour leader relaxed immigration controls in 2004 after 10 new nations including Poland, Lithuania and Hungary, were admitted to the EU.

He tried to play down the significance of opening Britain's borders, arguing that most EU migrants came to the UK after 2008. "

This article, apologies, its the Guardian, pretty much says it all. Everything.

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

"it is easy to forget just how much immigration and asylum haunted Downing Street throughout New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010, net annual immigration quadrupled, and the UK population was boosted by more than 2.2 million immigrants, more than twice the population of Birmingham. In Labour’s last term in government, 2005-2010, net migration reached on average 247,000 a year.

The dramatic changes have left British politics ruptured. Immigration remains the No 1 issue on the doorstep, according to pollsters – a stream that feeds into the well of mistrust in politics. It has spawned the emergence of Ukip and helped create four- or five-party politics in the UK for the first time.

Even the most ardent defenders of the New Labour government acknowledge that such a wave of immigration was not purely down to chance. But the key players of the time show in candid conversations that they were struggling to cope with a new world of rapid population movement across porous borders. At times they felt they were stumbling from one move to another, unsure of the present, let alone the future.

From the first year in office, the issue had hit the Labour government like a whirlwind. In 1997 net migration had been 48,000, but it rose extremely rapidly over the next 12 months, almost trebling to 140,000 in 1998. It was never to fall below 100,000 again.

EU enlargement and the big miscalculation

In 1999, an unlikely group of revolutionaries came together in the warren of nondescript offices and meeting rooms that make up the Cabinet Office. Appointed to the Performance and Innovation Unit, a small team of civil servants were given a vague and innocuous-sounding task: to assess some of the long-term strategic challenges for the UK. “It was your typical sort of civil service thing – four bright civil servants being asked to think big thoughts about the future of the UK,” remembers the unit’s then deputy director, Jonathan Portes, who as an undergraduate had studied maths at Balliol College, Oxford.

At the time Roche gave the speech, the fact that Britain could not control immigration from the EU was a relatively uncontentious issue. In the early years of the Blair government, income levels in most of the 15 member states were on a par with UK levels. Migration from the three poorer EU members at the time – Greece, Spain and Portugal, which joined in the “southern enlargement” of the 1980s – was relatively low, thanks in part to the generous EU funding of infrastructure projects in those countries.

In 2004, 10 more countries – eight of which had been part of the eastern bloc during the cold war – became members of the EU. (The former communist states were known, in the political jargon, as the A8.) In anticipation of the enlargement of the EU, Blair’s government took the precaution of asking academics to assess the likely levels of immigration from countries in central and eastern Europe that were noticeably less well off. Per capita GDP, as measured in purchasing power parity, of the eight new member states was less than half the EU average.

The report that was produced by the Home Office, published in 2003, did not predict a dramatic increase in immigration from Europe. The challenge for the team that wrote the report was a lack of data. The iron curtain meant that there was little recent history of free migration from eastern European countries. The authors therefore had to use Commonwealth countries, ranging from Australia to Swaziland, to make their forecasts. Based on their calculations, the report predicted that Britain would receive between 5,000 to 13,000 net immigrants per year averaged over a ten year period from the new member states.

The reality turned out to be quite different. The Office for National Statistic (ONS) estimates that between 2004 and 2012, the net inflow of migrants from the new members was 423,000. And this figure is expected to be eventually much higher when the 2011 census is fully analysed. Politicians mocked the authors when it became clear a few years later that the estimates had been wrong. (At one point in the paper, the authors had even characterised some of their calculations as “back-of-the-envelope”.) Blunkett, who was home secretary at the time the report was published, simply ignored it. “It was too low,” he recalls. “When they start talking about 13,000 you just start blanking out.”

“I think the problem is nobody really has read it,” says Dustmann, who is now a professor of economics at University College London. The projection of 13,000 net migrants per year over a decade, he explained, was based on the assumption that all 15 EU countries would open their labour markets to the newcomers, ensuring that the migrants would be reasonably evenly distributed across the EU. In the end, just Britain, Ireland and Sweden opened up. The other 12 member states, most notably Germany, exercised their right to impose “transitional controls”. “The German labour market was basically closed for Polish workers and that kind of changed everything,” Dustmann says.

Indeed, tucked away on page 57 of the report is a careful qualification that a third of the 100,000 migrants predicted to head for Germany might travel to the UK instead if Berlin imposed restrictions on workers. Taking Berlin’s decision to impose controls into account, Dustmann says, allows him to add 33,000 to his prediction of 13,000 migrants, giving him an actual prediction of 46,000 net migrants per year. This is not far from the ONS figure of 50,000 per year, he says, though he acknowledges that the actual figure may be much higher.

Virtually all politicians now agree that the failure to impose transitional controls was a mistake. However, there are still commentators who are willing to defend the government’s record.

One of the problems was that people were supposed to register if they were employed but many came as self-employed,” Denham says. “The biggest impacts were in self-employed trades like construction, where you didn’t have to register.” In the memo, Denham stated that the daily rate for a builder in the city had fallen by 50% since 2004. He also noted that hospital accident and emergency services were under strain because migrants tended not to use GPs as a first port of call. It also turned out that the local further education college had to close its doors after 1,000 migrants attempted to sign up for an English-as-a-second-language course on one day. Whitehall, Denham argued, was wholly out of touch with the concerns of his constituents. The government needed a comprehensive assessment to work out how it should deal with the surge in immigration.

Sir Stephen Wall, who was Blair’s most senior EU adviser between 2000-2004, frankly admits an error. “We simply didn’t take account properly of the pull factor of England for people with skills who could probably find a bigger market [in the UK] for their skills – you know, the Polish plumbe.”

AutumnRose1 · 20/02/2020 20:49

Bronwen “ they cannot, or will not, explain why it is acceptable for those countries to do it but not the UK.”

I have been called a “nativist” for pointing that out. I think I was only spared “racist” because I said I’m not white.

Moomin8 · 20/02/2020 20:52

I have seen it documented often said that Tony Blair and Jack Straw decided to relax immigration controls in 2004. I don't dispute it and I don't say that it wasn't foolish if they had no plan of how this would.

But the government now in power needs to provide funding that meet the requirements of what the previous government decided to do, not punish the rest of us.

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LittleBoyJuly2020 · 20/02/2020 20:53

@Forgetfebuary Great post but it's wasted here, you're not welcome unless you agree with their warped sugar coated ideals.

@Moomin8 I have no response to you I'm afraid. You're insanely irritating and delusional.

And to the pp who asked if i'm having Farages love child - what an immature response. All because somebody doesn't agree with you.

Moomin8 · 20/02/2020 20:53

'No plan of how this would work'

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Moomin8 · 20/02/2020 20:54

@LittleBoyJuly2020 no response except insults? Pretty much says it all really 🙄

If you want to be taken seriously then maybe stop with the objectionable posts.

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LittleBoyJuly2020 · 20/02/2020 20:59

@Moomin8 Who did I insult?? I expressed an opinion and stated facts. You didn't like it because you have an agenda and so i'm a racist, obviously.

CherryPavlova · 20/02/2020 21:00

The trouble is people sometimes let perception get in the way of facts. The U.K. certainly doesn’t top the immigration charts and places quoted as more restrictive (such as Australia) accept more.

To think that most people voted to leave the EU to stop freedom of movement?
BronwenFrideswide · 20/02/2020 21:03

CherryPavlova they may accept more but they apply criteria to those they will accept, my issue is why is applying rules and criteria acceptable everywhere bar the UK?

KenDodd · 20/02/2020 21:05

@LittleBoyJuly2020
Not a racist bone in my body.

My mum says that, and genuinely believes it. She's one of the most racist people I've met. I've never met a racist who thinks they're racist, thay always just think they're right.

CherryPavlova · 20/02/2020 21:07

LittleBoyJuly2020 I do disagree with you but it goes further. People like you terrify me. You have ill informed, racist beliefs that are reminiscent of Germany in 1933. Sadly, you’ve been duped into voting for something that will probably do you significant detriment. I assume from your description you live in a socio-economically challenged area. Those are the very areas most likely to suffer greatest disadvantage.

Maybe you’ll be one of those people Ms Patel thinks can fill the jobs left vacant by the tighter controls? Do you fancy lettuce picking with a 5am start?

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