AIBU to think Labour have lost the plot

[Gin96]

Dawn Butler on Good Morning TV saying babies are born without a sex, has the world gone mad!

www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1243758/Labour-MP-Dawn-Butler-Richard-Madeley-sex-baby-ITV-Good-Morning-Britain-GMB-latest-video

There's one news outlet that's standing for reason and science on this issue:

[[https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=3
The Dangerous Denial of Sex -
Transgender ideology harms women, gays—and especially feminine boys and masculine girls.]]

There is a paywall but I think some articles are available for free. If anyone is really interested and can't get to it I'll copy and paste the text.

I don’t know why they bother to Tweet if they don’t bother to read the responses, or even if they actually send the Tweets themselves and check what’s going on because surely no group of people would be so stupid as to get an overwhelmingly negative response to these things but not only do they not drop them quietly, but double down and go even further.

I honestly don’t know at this stage whether it’s stupidity, a lack of common sense for putting things out and not reading feedback from voters or if they simply don’t give a shit what voters think.

Well hopefully Labour might have actually worked out the differences between a man and woman by the time the next election comes round.

Barking. Totally barking.

She did say, it seems, that if you recognise biological sex then transwomen are not women. So not entirely lacking in logic: just the basic biological fact that sex exists. The sex of babies is set at conception, and sex organs are formed by about 12 weeks.

My MP is in the 'not giving a shit what voters think' group, Ladybug.

Oh look, the video in fact show her saying nothing of the like at all.

She actually says 'right at the very beginning, babies are formed without a sex'.

Clearly a reference to early gestation, not birth.

Lets not have facts getting in the way of a good transphobic rant though, eh?

There is so much going to shit in this country at the moment and the labour leadership candidates are making it all about the trans agenda. That pretty much shouldn't even be on the radar at this point. They are so far removed from the majority of their voters it is untrue, the are threatening to expell members, they will lose far more than they gain.

She actually says “a child is born without sex” I’m sorry you can’t just say you’re a woman because you feel like it. You can’t just self identify as a woman, it’s utter madness, not that it matters as Labour will never win election with that view.

She actually says 'right at the very beginning, babies are formed without a sex'.

Well she is still wrong. The sex is determined at the moment of conception. Seriously this is school boy or girl science.

Yebbut what about gay giraffes! Bet they too get priority along with human pups before Lesbians on the Pride marches...

TBH I don't think any of the candidates can beat the Tories.

There is so much going to shit in this country at the moment and the labour leadership candidates are making it all about the trans agenda.

Now there is a mystery. Why?
(Sex is determined by the chromosome carried by the sperm meeting the egg. It's there at the start).

The world indeed is going mad. I'm getting sick of how far everything is being pushed. All this non gender crap. There are two, and each of us is either one or the other, unless you're born with both sexual organs of course. That's my view on it. Please or offend.

They might not be able to beat the Tories but we need a strong opposition right now, and neither Labour nor the Libdems are going to do the job.
They are too busy demanding that convicted sex offenders be allowed to decide their legal sex so they can get access to women's prisons.

the resident anti-trans hysteria mob

You see, this sort of statement just sounds so hollow and desperate when the majority of the public clearly don't believe that transwomen are women.

I went to the same primary school as Dawn Butler - although i'm 12 years younger so we weren't there at the same time. My brother was friends with her brother.

When i was 9, two boys from my class cornered me in the cloakroom and told me they were going to rape me.

Dawn, if you're reading this, do you think I could have identified out of that moment? Why do you think they threatened to rape me rather than threatening each other with sexual violence?

(Sex is determined by the chromosome carried by the sperm meeting the egg. It's there at the start).

chromosomal sex is determined at conception, biological sex is determined later - certain processes have to happen by which those chromosomes lead to dvelopment of eg the external genitalia, male or female hormones, internal reproductiove system. It is actually a little more complex than schoolboy/schoolgirl biology. Consequentally some people can have indeterminate biological sex because of the absence or presence of specific gentalia or internal organs and chromosomally it is more complex than simply XY or XX.

But as I said before - it is a debate to be had calmly and sensibly, without people ranting and shouting and failing to actually listen to what someone has said. I don't consider 'labour has gone mad or it's insane, or political correctness gone mad' to be sensible debating points and I tend to feel that people who say these things don't actually have much of an argument to offer.

I really didn’t think it was possible for a politician to be stupider than JC. I was clearly wrong.

YANBU I'm beginning to think Labour has been infiltrated by Tory secret agents who are working to ensure they're unelectable for the next twenty years.

@Bezalelle

I couldn't give a damn what the majority of the public 'believe'. The fact is the general public have believed a lot of things down the years that are now accepted as abhorrent, backward, ridiculous, outdated, sexist, phobic, racist, you name it. The majority of the general public still had major issues with homosexuality not so very long ago.

The fact that someone can open a topic in here in which the entire premise is untrue, it stokes up another feeding frenzy about an already marginalised group, and the mods sit back and do nothing about it, is disgusting.

Regardless of the fact chromosomal sex is determined at fertilisation, the discussion Dawn Butler is engaging in is clearly discussing sex organs at the time, so she's entirely correct to assert that sex organs are non-existent in very early fetal development.

It's blindingly clear that the vast majority of posters in this thread haven'e even bothered to paste the link and watch the video, but are perfectly happy to pitch in with their tuppence regardless. A perfect example of ignorantly spouting from a pre-existing viewpoint without bothering to check facts. No surprise given the subject matter and par for the course on this site.

Do you consider "babies are born without sex" is a rational starting point then @KurriKurri?

And a tiny, tiny number of dsds does not make sex "complicated". There are still only two sexes. It's something human beings have instinctively understood and sadly, exploited, since prehistoric times with women paying the price.

No - but that isn't what she said initially until she was harried into mis'correcting' herself - so it's not really the point to be debated.

The first thing out of her mouth was babies are born without sex

Then she corrected herself and said are formed without sex

You can be told the babies sex from about 20 weeks (maybe before) so its still a weird comment to make in the context in which richard madley was referring to

Babies genitals are formed between 7 and 12 weeks

So you can tell what sex the baby is from around that period

I find it amazing that apparently the development from week 1 to 12 is being seen as more important that weeks 12 to 40

She wasn't harried, and she made some startling claims. We can all hear what was said and how it was said.
This is how politicians end up arguing to put male rapists in women's prisons. Politicans have no right to take away women's human rights and safety based on a new belief system.

www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1243758/Labour-MP-Dawn-Butler-Richard-Madeley-sex-baby-ITV-Good-Morning-Britain-GMB-latest-video