Being kept alive for the sake of the unborn baby..

[QueenofmyPrinces]

A bit random, but just after some other people’s thoughts about a discussion I had with my husband last night and some of our friends.

We had all been watching Kill Bill and were chatting about the fact that the main character had been shot whilst pregnant, and was in a coma for ‘x’ amount of time and then when she woke up she saw her bump wasn’t there - I guess she assumed the baby had died but in the second film, she learns that the baby didn’t die and had been living with the father for 6 years.

I then said that if I was pregnant, and something happened to me that resulted in me being clinically dead, I would want doctors to put me on a ventilator, to keep me ‘alive’ in order to preserve my baby‘s life and then deliver it at 40 weeks.

DH said that hypothetically he would want the same as we would both want the baby to be allowed to live even if something happened to me.

One of our friends was pretty horrified by the idea though and said she couldn’t put her finger on the reason why, but she just didn’t like the thought of it.

I asked why wouldn’t she want the doctors to keep her ventilated to keep the baby safe and ultimately be born, but she couldn’t give a specific reason and just said it didn’t seem right.

We didn’t get into any big debate about it or anything but I’m just interested in what other people think.

I would absolutely want to be “kept alive” to enable the safe delivery of my baby and allow it to have a chance at life.

AIBU to think most women would feel like that?

Exactly @Jellybeansincognito some posts are ridiculous.
It's been pointed out repeatedly that these scenarios are nonsense but PPs are enjoying being grotesque. Now Law & Order becomes a source of evidence. FGS.

That episode is about 20 years old. I seem to remember that the woman died in the end.

@ShiveringCoyote - that article is horrific. Can not believe that is the law

I think if the baby was capable of surviving, they would often keep the mum alive until it's born. (Or maybe only if the baby is after a certain length of gestation?)

I didn't even know she was pregnant in the film....

In order to give medics the best chance of resuscitating you, the baby would be delivered regardless. It’s called a perimortem Caesarean section. When a pregnant woman lies down, as if in the position to receive CPR the weight of the baby compresses the vena cava meaning any attempt at CPR would be mediocre at best. So they perform a section in order to increase the chances of saving the mother. If the mother is in such a state that this would not help her, in my experience the baby would be already dead.

So essentially this is a hypothetical scenario that would never actually happen.

I don’t honestly know about the medical science element of this so can’t comment on that side.
However, I am not an incubator as PPs have said, I am a mother whose unborn baby is much loved and wanted. If I was for the knackers but medical science was able to make my broken body habitable for my baby then I would absolutely want my baby to have a chance to live.

The baby is you. You and the father. So if 'you' are dead, you can live on through the baby - you have passed the baton.

Of course, of course a million times be kept physically alive so your baby, your new life, can be helped to survive and get out and live.

No brainer.

When a pregnant woman lies down, as if in the position to receive CPR the weight of the baby compresses the vena cava meaning any attempt at CPR would be mediocre at best. So they perform a section in order to increase the chances of saving the mother.

That’s really interesting.

Would they still perform the section if the baby was under the gestational age of viability, in the knowledge the baby would die? Or would a baby less than 24 weeks not weigh enough to cause the issues with the vena cava and so they’d leave the baby in the mother during CPR attempts?

No question to me. Keep me alive for my baby.

Missing the point entirely but in Kill Bill wasn't she in a coma anyway? She wasn't purposely being kept alive just for the baby's sake because she was in a coma for a long time after the baby was born. Then she woke up naturally. Won't mention what else happens in that scene as it's horrific. Good old Tarantino

^www.nytimes.com/2019/01/09/us/vegetative-state-birth-woman.html^

I'm afraid Tarentino homed in on the rare cases, but he was accurate.

I have this very primal, reactive horror at the thought of a new baby "alone" without its mother, even though it would be surrounded by love and care in my family

From my pov, your baby would be lucky. And your primeval response is accurate. At 6 weeks I was left with foster parents for 3 months who left me out in the snow until I looked like a baby with down's syndrome, my exposed face had swelled up so far they couldn't see my eyes. Physical long term consequences have been serious, so have the psychological ones.

I'm not at all convinced that some babies in the care system fare any better now.

That primeval horror is there for a reason, I'm certain, and the visceral horror at being kept alive for some weeks / months for the sake of the child is also there for a reason. I think we need to listen to that instinctive repulsion.

A PP mentioned that there's a fair bit of research being done into the pre-birth mother-child connection and how it influences brain development. There's much evidence now that early disruption of a 'normal' unfolding of mother-child linkage causes a lot of trouble. To be born to a mother whose heart is beating but whose spirit is absent ... It sounds kooky, but I think that bonding is essential.

Would they still perform the section if the baby was under the gestational age of viability, in the knowledge the baby would die? Or would a baby less than 24 weeks not weigh enough to cause the issues with the vena cava and so they’d leave the baby in the mother during CPR attempts?

This is specifically where a pregnant woman goes into cardiac arrest.

Yes, baby would be delivered, regardless of gestation. As only way the woman could be resuscitated.

Obviously if gestation was only a few weeks that's not relevant as no placenta, blood supply etc & no baby to deliver.

I'd be happy to be kept going if my unborn child needed it to happen to survive.
But why on Earth was the 6 year old child brought to see her mum like that? I'd not want that to happen.

When I was pregnant with my first son me and DH discussed the risks of c-sections and he said that if there were ever a scenario where he had to save either the baby or me then he would save me.

However, when pregnant with my second son he said that now that he knows what it is like to have a father a child, he would save the baby over me.

In relation to my first pregnancy I was adamant that I would want my baby to be saved over me.

In my second pregnancy I said I would want my life to be saved over the baby’s because I couldn’t imagine making my first son lose his mother at a young age and grow up without me. And nor could I bear the thought of not watching my first son grow up.

It’s such an emotive topic isn’t it.

I'm going to have to leave this thread!

Of course, of course a million times be kept physically alive so your baby, your new life, can be helped to survive and get out and live.**

This isn't possible!

You are going to die - baby is at viability - baby delivered.

You are going to die - baby close to viability - outside possibility, depending on circumstances, to keep baby alive till viability.

You are going to die - baby not close to viability - sadly, both die.

Why are medical & biological facts so hard to grasp here?

Remember, in most cases, whatever catastrophic event would have led to the mother's demise, would more than likely have led to the baby's death too.

If it would work, sure I'd be OK with it.

The baby is you. You and the father. So if 'you' are dead, you can live on through the baby - you have passed the baton.

Of course, of course a million times be kept physically alive so your baby, your new life, can be helped to survive and get out and live.

No brainer.

Really?

and at what stage of pregnancy?

A few days after a missed period when pregnant? to be maintained, as a corpse, to provide life support for 8months?

@QueenofmyPrinces well, yes, emotive but sorry, this is crackers.

Your DP was never going to get a choice of you vs baby to 'save'. It doesn't work like that, thankfully.

Your life takes precedence over baby, if such a tragic situation was to arise.

You can't just be "kept alive" if you are brain dead. It's fanciful and the stuff of movies. Your body deteriorates. Sepsis and fever sets in. Hypertension. Your body bloats with excess fluid. Your body may have to be pumped with drugs. You become susceptible to viruses, pneumonia, bed sores etc. The chances of a foetus surviving in that environment for weeks on end are tiny.

If you read the High Court decision on that awful case from Ireland you will see multiple medical experts discuss why there is such a low chance of viability and the devastating effect trying to "keep her alive" had on that poor women's body and in turn the effect on her family. Fair warning, it's a harrowing read;
www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2014/H622.html

On that subject this is an excelllent documentry of three familes who have had to make that decision none pregant but maybe could have been one was a mum of two!. Some disturbing scenes!

Provocative documentary following the doctors who can now interrupt, and even reverse, the process of death. Filmed over six months in the country's leading brain injury unit (Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge), it follows the journey of a man who, by only moving his eyes, is eventually asked if he wants to live or die. Two other families are also plunged into the most ethically difficult decision in modern medicine.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00t3szs/between-life-and-death

Under 24 weeks no baby would die with mum owt over and work to keep babe alive

I understand what so many people are saying, but I think I would want to be an incubator for my baby.
If I was a goner, id hope they'd save my baby even if that meant keeping me alive. However, if it would mean my baby would suffer then or in life, I'd hope they'd be merciful and let us go together. I would ultimately put the decision in DHs hands. I don't care what happens to me when I'm dead, let me do whatever good I can. If that means delivering a healthy child, then yes. If that means chopping me up for others, then yes!

Your DP was never going to get a choice of you vs baby to 'save'. It doesn't work like that, thankfully.

I know - it was just a hypothetical conversation we were having. We have a lot of hypothetical conversations about various scenarios as a discussion point to learn about our thoughts and opinions of things etc.

Wouldn't want to be kept alive. I'm Irish but a long time in the UK and I'm still just completely horrified by that case. I travelled home with a 2 year old and a baby less than a week after breaking my foot to make bloody sure I voted to repeal the 8th.

For a few days, maybe. But if the woman is brain dead, the body will shut down eventually. Baby or not. The modern medicine can only help this much and not for too long... The Bride in "Kill Bill" was not brain dead, she was in a coma, which is something else. And she had been heavily pregnant when she ended up in a coma, well into her 3rd trimester.

I will not get pregnant ever again ( at least, that's the plan) but if I were in a situation like this, unless we talk about a few days wait, I'd say that if the baby is viable - deliver the baby and try to do the best for he/she after that. If the pregnancy is too small, let the baby pass away with me.