AIBU to remove all privileges from my 12yo?

[itswonkylampshade]

I realise this is partly age and stage but she’s becoming increasingly sullen, moody and hostile, including towards her 4yo sister (who is a sharp cookie and admittedly responds in kind).

She’s a lucky girl, has more than many children and actually has a lot of freedom. She gets pocket money, has her own laptop, mobile (with screen time limits which is an affront to her), takes part in two reasonably pricey sporting hobbies and still all we get from her is rudeness and blank refusal to do the most basic things around the house... her room is like a squat, she puts clean, folded clothes back into the wash rather than go to the effort of putting them into her drawers (if I insist, it’s a confrontation and then she won’t close the drawers!), she won’t put any real effort into homework, won’t read, won’t practise her music...I actually had to force her to change her clothes and take a shower last night as her socks were filthy and had obviously been worn for days. I am totally sick of the sound of myself telling her (patiently) every single mealtime to eat with her mouth closed.

I’m at my wits end and also worried about her. I’ve closed down her screen time completely today, stopped my direct debit for her pocket money and told her she can earn these privileges by behaving better and helping out round the house.

Sounds totally reasonable to me. That said when I was a teenager my mum reminding me to do things like eat with my mouth closed just made me do it more, just to get a rise.

I genuinely don’t think she values anything she gets. She’s worse when she has friends over, and you can even see the friends squirming at her hostile, cocky behaviour. It’s as though she can’t see that at all, she’s so caught up in negativity and how hard done to she is! It’s at the stage where is think her attitude is actually going to hold her back in life.

I've not been in that position myself (other than being a 12yo girl ofc). So I don't have any particularly useful advice other than don't over react.

By that I mean don't go from effectively 'putting up with the behaviour' to 'removing all privileges'. It'd probably be more effective to sit her down and explain that things need to change, and that each time she does something un acceptable she will lose a little more of her privilege. But also that each time she does something good she will get the opportunity to request something back. If it were me I'd probably have done either the removal of screen time or removal of pocket money (but not both).

And would have made sure to explain that this was going to be a consequence of her actions (and specifically which actions will cause it) in advance. You may have already explained this to her (not clear from your post). But she needs to be absolutely clear about cause and effect before the punishment.

I'm basing this on how I was disciplined - I was never told when I was behaving in a way that was deemed un acceptable. Then when things got to a certain point my parents would blow up at me and take everything away that I cared about. Or they would say absolutely nothing and I'd come to turn my computer on only to find the power cable had been removed or something had been unplugged inside. No warning, no nothing. I lost a lot of respect for my parents as a result.

Her eating with her mouth open isn’t for my benefit - it’s just something she does, despite years of reminding her. It’s a struggle to get her to brush her teeth, too. She just lies and says she’s done it.

How honest are you?

Do her friends see her out of a bedroom? If not why not?
Do you tell her she stinks?
Do you tell her her teeth will be yellow?

Thanks, yes perhaps I shouldn’t have done both at once. I just feel the way things are working has to fundamentally change. She’s behaving like an absolute slob and while it’s difficult to live with, I’m worried her laziness and bad attitude is actually going to impact negatively on her long term at this point.

Sounds like a normal teenager to me.

You don't mention spending any time with her, just chatting and doing things together. How is she in herself, is she worrying about anything? It is such an emotional time for teenagers, and I think girls in particular can be awful and manipulative in their friendship groups.

A lot of it is normal, pick your battles.

Won't practice music - stop lessons. Is rude stop giving her lifts to activities/friends house. You need to link into natural consequences.

You say she has a lot, perhaps she has had always had more than most easily and ended up ungrateful...

We deliver clean clothes in a basket (3 DDs close in age so they have to help sort clothes out we have little clue these days). The often don't get put away until nearly all used but don't end up in the dirty basket. They don't actually have many clothes so it is less to put away...

If she is very rude when she has friends around then explain they won't be coming around again.

My girls have their moments but generally are good with hormonal awfulness occasionally!

Not sure what you mean but hen yo it e asking whether her friends see her out of a bedroom? She spends time in their homes, they spend time here. Her friends are nice kids.

I’ve told her again and again her teeth have to last her her whole life and they will start looking bad if she won’t clean them. I have had to say to her on a couple of occasions that she needs a shower because I can smell her - every interaction I start lightly (because “head up for a shower pet” shouldn’t be a big deal), and she builds into a confrontation. It’s really, really hard to deal with and I’m constantly worrying I’m not saying or doing the right things. At the base of it she just doesn’t seem to give a shit. That’s the part I just cannot understand.

I think Curiosity's approaches is spot on.

Taking all her privileges at once won't work because after that what has she got to lose if she misbehaves.

I think you also need to to break it down it down and deal with a couple of issues at a time.
Eating with her mouth open is annoying but not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. Think about that once you've dealt with the bigger issues like the bad attitude with her friends, and the lack of personal hygiene.

If you're constantly telling her off for every issue, big and small, it will feel like she can do no right even when she's trying.

Perhaps it’s normal but I think she’s totally lacking awareness that the privileges she has are as a result of hard work on my part - being treated like the enemy is pretty hard to stomach!

I’m thinking of paying off her mobile contract and getting a PAYG sim she can pay for herself, with money she earns. Too harsh or reasonable enough?

she puts clean, folded clothes back into the wash rather than go to the effort of putting them into her drawers

My ds is the same age and does this too...he shoves dirty clothes back in the drawer as well. It's a nightmare!

I should add that I’m far from telling her off for everything. I praise her, love her dearly and do my best for her. I’m not a punitive parent but I’m human and at this point I’m fed up of her laziness and bad attitude. And I’ve told her this.

Sounds quite normal for 12, perhaps try some positive parenting techniques instead of so much negativity. Taking away all privileges at once seems extreme how is that going to work once You run out and she’s still being a toad. Perhaps she’s a little spoilt.
I’d pull back on the material stuff a 12 year old doesn’t need a contract phone and a laptop and whatever else she has. She sounds like she doesn’t appreciate what she has and that you work to provide for her. It’s hard having such a big age Gap too can you spend time with her once your younger child is in bed. Stand over her brushing her teeth etc share some grooming tips perhaps once behaviour has improved a trip shopping/hair dresser together. I have boys so can’t do that stuff quite the same but that attitude and behaviour Would not be tolerated here, and my kids don’t have stuff etc we share it

Of course she doesn’t understand her privilege, it is her norm. Expensive sports/hobbies are just things she does. I think you need to separate what you feel is privilege to her behaviour.

It's hard when children are so ungrateful for things we would have loved when we were children, but I guess it's all they know.

I agree with having the conversation 'things have got to change'. Agree with her what is acceptable behaviour ie shower every other day, clean teeth, put laundry away, speak respectfully for eg on her side equals lifts to clubs, pocket money, clean clothes, screen time on your side.

I think she's old enough to realise that as adults we don't get to do whatever we like all the time, we have responsibilities and have to get on with boring tasks just like she is being asked to do. I'd try having this conversation with her treating her more like an adult first. Give her a chance to rise to it.

Good luck though!

I think you have done exactly the right thing. We are parents of 5 and I wish I had got strict earlier because bad habits of slobbery and ingratitude definitely become engrained. I dont put up with it with the youngest, but the next one up who has returned home undermines that with her attitude and behaviour. Know that whatever the 12 year old does now, the 4 year old may do sooner and worse, unless you get some rules established. Ask her if she wants to continue with music, if yes, then she must practice, if no, put the money saved into a parental sanity fund.But I don’t think you took too much. I would strip her room of everything but bed and bedding and 1 set of clothes, and let her earn it back. Not that I ever did, but I wish I had, and I do know someone who did and they transformed their 2 children from entitled monsters with numerous labels, to sensitive, socially skilled hard working young adults.
Stay calm and stay strong.

I have a 14 year old who has been through this phase. My 20 year old was an absolute nightmare as well but both in different ways! My 20 year old was a bit spoiled as I over compensated for splitting with her dad. With my 14 year old I was determined to do things differently, and like you I also have younger children - 2 of them.

All of the kids do their jobs (I hate the word chores), and my 14 year old gets her allowance based on whether she's actually done her jobs during the month. She doesn't get to have friends round if her rooms messy, or she has been misbehaving and if she talks back to me about anything at all then I've leant to say to her I'm leaving the room and when you've thought through what you just said you can come and find me. I don't pander to tantrums, and I have been known to take her devices away if she gets seriously obnoxious.

We don't struggle for money and my kids know that they are seriously fortunate to be in that position, but that we only live well because I have a good job, and I can only keep that job if we all pull together and work as a team. Because its just me and them I really like to push that aspect with them - I cant do everything without their support. Even the little two have jobs to do - they have to tidy their toys away and when we have dinner they get to set the table.

Teenage years are really hard, they're finding their feet and testing boundaries and its hard both for them and us - I found the biggest help to me was to define what's acceptable e.g. a bit of mardiness around the time of the month with girls is fine, what's in the grey area e.g. room not tidy every day but always done at the weekend and once in the week and what's definitely not acceptable e.g. using foul language towards mum. And don't move those boundaries. They soon learn, but you have to not give in on the things that are absolutely not ok x

Thanks everyone, for your viewpoints. I suppose I’m worrying also that it’s almost setting her up for depression in some way. She’s at that age where her hormones are probably going haywire (hasn’t started periods, yet), and I think the issues over hygiene and bad eating habits - in terms of not making healthy choices - will actually be making her feel gritty as well as making her seem slobby.

Thank you. Yes her Dad and I are not together and haven’t been since she was one. She hasn’t seen him at all for six years and before then he was rarely in her life. I do think I’ve probably tried to overcompensate where that’s concerned, by giving her opportunities rather than “stuff”, but she’s interested for five minutes and then it just becomes something else to fall by the wayside.

I've 5 kids. 4 of them have been 12. Mix of boys and girls. TBH it is her age. I found they were all like this. The girls at around 14/15 snapped out of it , the boys around 15/16 snapped out of it.

I did spend about 2 years on my eldest a boy, nearly crying for him to wash, pick up clothes, clean room etc I was using every punishment in the book. Nothing worked.

My second a girl, I thought this would be different, but it was worse, they have more bits and pieces, so bedroom was like a bomb went off. The attitude was worse, the back talking was worse. Again I tried every punishment, nothing worked, she really rebelled.

Then they hit the 15 year's, well...... it was like I got new kids. Don't get me wrong we still had the bit of attitude , rolling the eyes etc but they couldn't wash themselves enough, then taking care of skin and teeth, they took such an interest in themselves.

They both looked after their rooms, they liked having friends over and liked it clean and tidy, there were a couple of hic ups but nothing major.

My next 2 when they reached 12, same shit again, only this time I didn't waste time arguing or getting upset, I did still point out that if they liked living in a pig sty smelling of sweat that was their choice. Again once the 15 years came, big changes in them.

So personally having taken away privileges and leaving them had the same result. I did keep speaking to them on cleanliness etc it's definitely the age, everyone goes through it, keep your own sanity and have a chat explain about smells etc it doesn't matter how many material goods they have, they never really show appreciation, they'll thank you and love them and will be delighted to have them but they certainly won't be bothered having them removed, they'll find something else to distract themselves, which is usually something more annoying.

Every year there is a 'phase' for kids. I do think the 12-18 is the worst 🙄 the only thing is you get a bit of variety throughout these years. You wonder every morning who's going to come out of the room.

She lost her Granny last year too (my Mum) which has been another huge sadness. I suppose alongside being utterly frustrated by her I’m also worried she’s in a negative mindset altogether. The behaviours are far from new, but just worried they are becoming her default setting which isn’t healthy at all.

being treated like the enemy is pretty hard to stomach!

That's pretty average for being a teen

Going in all guns blazing and removing everything gives her nothing to lose

You need linked consequences, and you need to start from a position of "Things are changing in this house" fresh start

So if her room is abominable then no friends over. A bit untidy then it's up to her if she wants to be embarassed. I ignore bedrooms as long as the door can be closed and there is nothing smelly. If it doesn't impact everyone else then fine, but no guests over if it's shameful.

Split pocket money. A small sum that is given regardless (I discovered through trial and error that giving a little, but not quite enough leaves them wanting more better than taking it all away). The rest is earned by being a functioning member of the household and pitching in.

Clothes basket - if they don't come down they don't get washed. Then put clean stuff in a basket or tub and then ignore. At least in a tub it stays clean. That is a stage they all grow out of when they become more image conscious.

Talk to her about hygience. There might be something behind it, especially if it's new or getting worse. I had terrible personal hygience at 13/14 and I really wish my Nana had talked to me about it rather than just yelling. It kept people away from me and meant I could control what I got bullied about, rather than just being bratty.

Pick your battles - basic hygiene, homework, basic household participation - and decide what you'll allow re phone/screen time.

Then decide on a deal for the rest. Most importantly stick to it for at least a month, it will likely get worse for a bit before it gets better.

12-18!!!? God help me 😂

I've no idea why autocorrect has changed hygiene to hygeince. I don't think that's even a word!