To Cancel Piano Lessons?

[RubysRoo]

I am not at all a competitive parent. For me my kids having active, full lives where they are happy, have good friendships, work at school to the best of their ability and are kind is more important to me than them being at the best school/top set in class/or any sort of prodigy. But I'm struggling with what to do about piano lesson. Would love to hear other people's opinions.

My 13 DD has been taking piano lessons for 3.5 years. Started b/c she wanted to. No pressure from me. One of 3 dc and she is the only one that takes piano. The same time she started 3 other friend's dc started ranging in age from 7-12 (dd was 10). 3.5 years on all my friend's dc are really doing so well, obviously the older ones on the whole progressing quicker than the younger ones, but my dd not so much. We just had the winter recital today and my dd plays more like the kids who started last term (September). She is clunky, makes many mistakes (every couple bars), and has no fluency to her playing at all. She practices minimally, she practices but not what is expected for her age and level - for example she will play 2 scales make mistakes in both and just carry on, never go back and play them again. She will play 1-2 current songs, loads of mistakes and doesn't do what is suggested like go through the bars she struggles with and just play those a few times, then go back and try the song again. She's 13 so she knows. Her attitude is that it is good enough and move on. Her teacher has addressed this, to no avail.

I wondered if it is to do with musicality. But she's very musical and her year at school had the opportunity to learn strings and she's doing remarkably well (teacher said on par with dc who have lessons outside of school, she doesn't), but she hates it. She also has a lovely voice but hates singing. That doesn't matter but kind of proves it isn't that she can't do it.

Here's my dilemma, these lessons are expensive. I pay £20/week which is £80/month (whether you have lessons in 1/2 term or not, you are charged the same monthly rate) plus the books and other items you need to buy like practice books (both the books with pieces in it and the school's practice recording books), they also charge £20 per family to attend three times a year concerts, and there's an annual registration fee of £50. They also insist on lessons It all adds up to about £100/month year round. That's a huge amount in our budget. And she's really not progressing. I mean I'd go so far as to say it sounds terrible though I'd never say that to her and I comment on positive things as well as make suggestions based on what the teacher put in her practice sheet. The school is amazing and I don't blame them, in 3 years she's had two teachers and it's the same with both, it's her hap hazard attitude that is the issue. She learns a song, stops practising it, and it's gone. Doesn't need to practice anymore as she says she knows the song now it isn't like she'll forget. And of course that's exactly what happened.

Today at the recital it was almost embarrassing and I hate admitting that as a Mum because everything in me says it shouldn't matter what stage she's at. A couple people came came up to us saying what a tricky piece for a beginner and well done for being so brave. Well, she's been playing 3.5 years and it's a piece that all my friends dc mastered within a couple terms of lessons. It's a very large music school, so these people didn't know she wasn't a beginner. All the kids playing the number of years she has are going in for exams at this stage and play with fluency. She honestly wasn't much better than those that started in January, and not even as good as some of the dc who started in September. She just shrugs her shoulders and says oh well.

What do I do? Keep paying £100/month when she won't follow teacher's recommended practice techniques, practices in 5-10 minute bursts with constant mistakes and never tries to fix it, and really isn't progressing? Or tell her unless I see some progress - more to do with attitude and not to do with mastering anything - this is her last term? She doesn't have to be ready to take exams, nor the best, or even amazing, but I think she should be willing to practice well, work at things to learn them and progress. I don't care how fast but progress.

FWIW she loves piano and says how she plays is good enough for her.

What would you do? £1200 for a kid to play a couple songs at the exact same pace/level/skill set over a year or two is truly a massive waste of money. I've spent just shy of £4000 on lessons and honestly she knows a few scales by heart and a song I'm sure she could have taught herself via youtube. I am a single parent, £4000 is a huge amount of money, I could have started proper retirement savings, we could have afforded a nice holiday somewhere like Cornwall for less than the cost of these lessons and I could have saved the rest. This dc is very intelligent - high marks at school - if she put her mind to it she could be at such a different place with her piano playing. I think more than anything I feel disappointment considering the sacrifice to make it happen - when she started I picked up 4 extra hours a week of work in order to make it happen. I already work more than full time hours.

Ask your daughter what would she like to achieve with these lessons. If the answer is to keep playing modern pieces on the same level as she is now, I would then explain to her that she has already learned enough to continue further without private lessons and can carry on with online support only. Unless she demonstrates serious dedication to piano practice (assuming she has musical abilities) there is no reason to pay for a private tutor.
BTW I had grade 8 at 14 yo, piano needs daily practice or it doesn't make any sense to do it at all

What she is doing now isn't working. Perhaps have a meeting with her teacher and ask them to focus on practise technique if you can't get out of lessons now, maybe change repertoire. Instill in her the importance of practise and tell her that without a minimum level you won't continue to invest in the lessons. If she is mad keen perhaps try a different teacher. But your gut is telling you this ain't going anywhere fast. Good communication between you and your DD on where she is at and what she wants to achieve and what it takes to get there is a good idea, but be prepared to pull the plug. As others say, if she wants to tinkle around at home, the piano is there, there's lots on YouTube and there are apps. Unless she is focused on progressing, after 3.5 years and with no practise disciple, it ain't gonna happen. If she wants to be musical and you want to support her, the piano may not be her instrument,

I have one of each - DS1 who enjoyed his lessons but couldn't be bothered to play at home and DS2 who wouldn't stop ... I think well done for giving her the chance to play but if she won't practise stop wasting your money. She may come back to it later - DS2 loved messing around on the keyboard when he was in lower school but wouldn't do the work when l signed him up for lessons - fast forward a decade and his Music teacher heard him noodling away in one of the practise rooms at school and suggested he give it another go, three years on he's grade 8.
She won't pull her finger out unless you change the status quo, so l'd make this the last term.

...sorry, prematurely cut off there! I was just going to add, let her focus on strings, it might work out better in the end.

Thank you everyone, such good wisdom & perspective here. You gave me much to think about.

I sat down with dd after tea tonight and at first she was very defensive and said I only wanted to speak with her as I was comparing her to everyone else at recital. Once we got past that and I apologized and said I was sorry she felt that way and that wasn't my intention but I do want to have a very frank and mature conversation about piano, she was able to. So that was good.

In a nutshell, she says she loves it, she's happy with the level she plays at, she has no desire to be good, she likes her quick practices and feels it's enoough and wants to progress with lessons bc she enjoys them and looks forward to them every Saturday. I explained that while my goal has never been for her to be a prodigy or a concert pianist, I do think that when someone is paying for something that means the recipient has some responsibilities. I explained that in my opinion (as the person paying!) I feel her responsibilities are to practice the way in which she needs to to progress, and to progress in the sense that each month she's able to play a little stronger/better/more challenging piece/rhythm than the last month and that year on year she's making strides. For example, many students received certificates today for knowing 100 songs, and that they all started by knowing 5, 10, 15 etc. My expectation is that by 3.5 years she knows a decent number of songs b/c she's kept up with the song she's learned and not just refused to practice them as soon as she's learned them.

I explained if I don't see measurable progress while I'd never stop her from playing, and love listening to her on the piano, I will stop paying for lessons. She was none too happy about that but I held my ground and explained there are alternatives like playing what she does now without the £100 a month commitment.

My expectation is a 20 - 30 minute practice each day (5 days/week) following her practice chart which is:

1. Two scales - played without mistakes 5 x each
2. Warm up - review 3 past pieces. If any mistakes play those bars 3-5x until confident and then play piece again. Repeat until able to play review pieces without mistakes. [Review pieces on rota so all are covered in a week]
3. New song - work on troublesome bars first. Then lines of song, then complete song.
4. Sight reading exercise
5. Final review of new song and 1 of the 3 review pieces that was trickiest. Also my expectation is she listens to her music (they provide this at the school) at least 3 x a week.

We've agreed that if she's willing to put in the work, no matter what her progress, I will continue with the lessons. If she gets to July and she isn't practising with any commitment as outlined, and isn't able to practice 5 days a week, then we will finish lessons.

She agreed and we agreed to start tomorrow. I think part of this is a good life skill too, if we take up a commitment we have to make some sacrifice. The funny thing was at the end she asked if I would also start paying for ukelele lessons as her school has just hired a uke teacher this school year. I said no! Confidentially. I did say if she committed to a year of playing piano with diligence, and a good attitude, then we could look at splitting the cost of uke lessons between me and her baby-sitting money. She's just started baby-sitting Sunday afternoons for neighbours. But that for now we are simply seeing what happens with piano.

Thank you everyone this was so helpful. We now have some measurable goals and I feel it's taken the emotion out of it. We will see where we get to and make a decision from there. I feel like if I cancelled the lessons b/c she didn't stick to the agreement I could do it with no regrets. The ball is in her court, and at almost 14 that's a good life experience I think.

@yellowkangaroo - good suggestion, I will ask her teacher to devote a lesson to a practice session, pretending she's at home and reviewing expectations. Her teacher is very young (uni student) and fun, so I think that will also remind dd that this is still an expectation.

For those asking the £20 is just for 30 minute lesson. An hour is £40. We only do 1/2 an hour a day.

And yes, it's dd who wants to keep with piano. She hates the strings program at school.

I think you’ve solved the problem there op. Your daily timetable will take all the fun out of it for her and she’ll definitely want to stop lessons

@MovingBriskyOn I’m glad someone agrees with me 😳😆 I’d feel a little differently if the op’s daughter was in primary, I’d suggest trying another club or activity. As it it though, my 11 year old has just started secondary, and if it wasn’t for her dance club I’d feel she’d lose herself trying to cope with secondary school and the ridiculous amounts of homework. The only thing she has outside of school is her dance club once a week, and I’m happy to admit she’s not a natural (actually fairly rubbish) dancer, but her happiness is worth it. My financial situation is pretty crap and while the dance lessons are cheaper than the op’s piano lessons, they’re so far away that the transport costs bump it up to far more than what she’s paying, I also have to sit outside her class for 2 hours every week because I don’t have time to get home and back during the lesson. But I don’t care how good or bad my dd is, just that she enjoys it. I’d never complain about a child enjoying their music lesson so much that they don’t want to quit, despite not being very good at it

My DS, now a young adult, wanted music lessons but not to do the grade exams. We did not interfere. In any case he is a very bright kid, so we wanted him to be able to do something he loved without the pressure. He still does it a bit, at Uni (for fun, not study).

She needs to practice, she’ll get nowhere without doing it and it’ll be a waste of your money and time.

However she’s your kid not the teachers so that’s on you to get her to do it. Have a set time to do it so it becomes habit and sit down with her if she can’t be trusted to do it properly on her own. If you don’t want to or can’t commit to that then she’ll struggle to see why she should.

If it's a stretch for you financially then it just doesn't sound like paying for lessons is justified.

I stopped paying for DD's music lessons when she was 11 because she didn't practice. (She later took up 2 other instruments but that's another story).

Tbh it sounds like piano is maybe not the right instrument for your DD - in the initial stages a reasonably musical teenager should be capable of making good progress even with limited practice.

Straycatstrut

I think you may have pulled him too early. Although I had no knowledge of gymnastics I'm fast becoming an expert with two of mine involved My son started at six and mastered cartwheels within the year and it took a little longer for the handstand. My daughter started at five and is only now at seven she is able to do a beautiful cartwheel. I actually didn't think she would ever get it. But chatted with the teacher and she said most kids get cartwheels around 6 to 7. Maybe you started him too early. Sometimes I think you could start at 6 or 7 and see progress really quickly because they're finally developmentally ready and of course have greater gross motor skills not to mention listening skills.

OP, I have 4 children whom play the piano really well. I am 15 years into piano lessons so I feel very confident in what I am about to write.

Absolutely no point in doing lessons if practice isn't done at least 5 days out of 7.

Yes, I agree the piano teacher is benefiting if this hasn't been spelt out clearly to you both.

Our teacher made this abundantly clear within 6 weeks.

Lessons without practice are a complete and utter waste of time and money. Piano lessons are not cheap.

Your DD may enjoy the lesson but if she is not practicing it is a complete waste of time.

20 to 30 minutes a day is utterly ridiculous.
My children did that for the final grades 7+ 8 exams.
For grades 5 and 6, 15 minutes a day gained them a high honour grade.

They certainly did absolutely nothing resembling that for the early grading.

The key is playing every single day..little but often.
If your DD was doing 5 minutes a day consistently she would have been making huge consistent progress from the beginning.

If she doesn't practice every day from now on, kill it.

Fyi...I had to remind my children every day to practice...year in year out.
Just as their teacher advised....children whom voluntarily practice are like hens teeth...the rest were like my children...having to be reminded.

Yet somehow through this...they all play really beautifully for their own pleasure.

It is an enormous gift that I feel they have been given, and it's only as they have grown much older they get themselves how wonderful it is to really command an instrument.

It has been an enormous commitment as a parent to take on. It's hard to explain just how big a commitment it has been, to keep reminding them to practice.

The pleasure I get from listening to them play a beautiful piece is extraordinary but I can't stress enough the commitment involved as a parent to get them to that place, day in day out. It has been huge.

If I had been working outside the home I doubt I could have done it for all of them.

I’m a piano teacher.

I wouldn’t stop the lessons just yet, given that she enjoys them. I know I have a few parents who despair because they see their child making slower progress than their peers. I say “it’s a marathon, not a sprint”. The pupils I have on Grade 8/ A level/ diplomas/ off to do music are those who stuck with it and not necessarily those who moved quickest at the start.

Having said that, I’d overhaul the practice as it doesn’t sound as though she’s ever going to progress much on current schedule. Just “playing through” doesn’t achieve much unless you actively try to correct your weak points.

Having said that, her practice chart is somewhat uninspiring and I wouldn’t want to follow that either. I always say to my pupils, “don’t practice harder, practice smarter”. In other words, don’t play it for a set number of times, play it until you’ve achieved what you’re trying to achieve. The teacher needs to set out more clearly what this is. “troublesome bars first” means nothing to a relative beginner. Better to say “play the third line first”. You can include far more interesting things to do such as record yourself and listen back, put your scale names into a random generator, play games to try to get sections right etc. I’d look at that practice chart and say “where are the challenges? Where are the games? Where’s the stuff which is interactive with you as a parent? Where are the YouTube links or the specific listening tasks? Does your DD know exactly what she’s trying to achieve during the week and go back with? This could be a part of it and if other children have more intrinsic motivation this will be why you’re seeing such a difference.

Finally, you’re paying rather a lot. I’d say a little over the norm, unless you’re in a good private school or in London with in which case probably about ok. Even then, I wouldn’t expect to be paying that for a uni student. Experience counts for a lot with these kinds of situations.

billy1966 as a teacher I’d agree with every word you’ve written.

Honestly I’d stop the lessons. I doubt she will stick to it.

I used to play the piano (not well). I knew my music theory so I knew all my scales and arpeggios. Would practice those and then get sheet music for a piece I liked and very slowly learn it bar by bar, one hand at a time and then both together. Only had a few lessons but I played other instruments and sang.

Now more than 20 years on I bought myself a great digital piano with Bluetooth so I can link to apps. I bought a subscription to Flowkey and I work my way through the lessons then pick a piece I want to learn and go through it bar by bar. At the moment I’m learning the piece from The Piano (my mum loved it) and one from Amelie which I’ve always loved and wanted to play. In a few days I’ve gone from not being able to play even a bar properly to learning big sections fluently and mostly by memory. But I’m practising a lot, when the twins are in bed. I’m still clunky in parts but getting better. Before that I went back to some Beethoven, Bach and Chopin I painstakingly learnt bar by bar years ago!

For me, the improvement is the reward - not being able to play a bar and then suddenly finding your fingers just move to the right keys because you’ve done it so many times and it sounds lovely. That’s what I enjoy. If she doesn’t care whether it sounds good, there’s no motivation to practice.

Maybe she needs to learn a different style - maybe she’d respond more to jazz / blues improv, maybe she’d enjoy composing a bit.

If she doesn’t want to practice and she’s not motivated to sound better, what’s she getting out of it?

I assume she can read music now and has adequate hand positioning etc, so I would get her an app and let her work on it on her own. Flowkey is good but doesn’t have a great range of lessons, and a reasonably limited range of songs. There may be better ones.

I kept reminding them to practice every day, so did my aupair in my absence. They still did not improve. Whether it is 5 or 30 mins a day would have got them no where. I completely identify with "Just “playing through” doesn’t achieve much unless you actively try to correct your weak points."

My dd just played through her pieces and scales making different mistakes each time. No progress despite practising.

There has to be something intrinsic in the child to make them focus. It is not just practice.

The piano can be taken up again at adulthood if they are so interested. Nothing is lost if they are not interested enough to gain that skill during childhood.

I hope the new practice schedule will work out for you both, but don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t. She’s already shown she doesn’t like to practice on the piano; that’s just the way it is. That’s going to be difficult to change and you cannot make it a workhorse for her - that will send her backwards. It has to come from her. As PPs have suggested, I don’t think she’s found her instrument yet. She enjoys the piano, but perhaps it isn’t her primary instrument. If I was you, I would stop the lessons and direct her to YouTube. There are plenty of resources there.

As for finding her instrument, let her explore. She said she wanted to play the the ukulele - that may not be what is considered a ‘serious’ instrument, but it is wonderful to play and in fact there are other instruments associated with it such as the ‘guitarlele’ that produce beautiful, complex sound and melody. Good luck.

@UnaCorda

Even the London conservatoires pay under £40 p/h. London state schools pay around £30 p/h to very experienced, well-qualified instrumental tutors. It's nonsense to suggest that there are a few "top teachers" charging £80+ an hour (or whatever) and every other teacher is second-rate

The really good experienced teachers in London for 0-15 year olds are £80 per hour. The colleges pay peanuts, but then the teachers there are not paying overheads.

It’s very rare for an instrumental teacher in a bogstandard school - ie one that does not have a first rate music department - to be much good.

OP’s DD started at 10 which is quite late. She needed a good teacher. Teachers should generally teach beginners how to practice. But to be fair, DD may not have listened anyway.

In the circumstances, it’s not even worth paying £20 an hour. Perhaps DD will put more effort in now OP has had a talk with her. But I suspect she won’t change her habits.

Why does a not especially dedicated 13-year-old beginner need a "top teacher" anyway? Do they have an ex-Olympian to teach PE, a maths PhD to teach GCSE, an RSC actor to teach drama, a Booker prize-winner to teach English?

The craft of teaching is a talent in itself. People who excel at subjects don’t always make the best teachers. I think everyone deserves a really good teacher.

TatianaLarina - as you point out, the people who excel at a subject do not always make the best teachers. So, how are you assessing who the best teachers are? By choosing the ones you find reassuringly expensive?

You assess the best teachers on how well their pupils play - their technique etc. Also the really good teachers have track records of students getting music scholarships, places at specialist music schools, going on to be professionals etc.

I’m not saying the best teachers are the ones who charge the most, I’m saying the really good, experienced teachers in London charge x. HTH.

I was your DD. I did like having lessons but was too lazy to practice and hated theory. Eventually I dropped it.

Last year I started again, decades later. I had to learn from scratch, even learning to read music again. I absolutely adore it now. I have the patience to practice. I interact with my teacher in a totally different way, choosing my own pieces, am genuinely interested in understanding the music and drink up her advice on how to practice. In short, I’m probably a teacher’s dream other than a definite lack of talent.

I would suggest dropping the lessons but encouraging her to teach herself and to gradually get smarter at practicing. Recording her playing might be helpful, I often think I’m playing better than I am!!

You’ve given her the starting blocks. Time for it to be more of a hobby without the stress.

I'm glad you're finding a way forward with your daughter; she's old enough to realise that she's been given a chance, but set a limit.
It's worth considering that the teacher might not want to continue with her! Part of my teaching post was "looking after" the "peris" who came in to give lessons (not that they needed much except the occasional backup!) and I only ever remember it happening once, but one delightful lad (I'm not being sarcastic, he was a pleasant child with some potential) was eventually abandoned by two teachers, piano and guitar.
In my experience, teachers have infinite patience with the pupil who is making some progress, however slow, if an effort was being made, but groundhog day can be soul-destroying.
Lessons happened during the school day, and I think he saw it as a pleasant break from the rigours of other schoolwork, and 30 minutes undivided attention from a kind adult.
The practice diaries we provided had a space for effort every week, and if "not enough practice" cropped up too much, I saw it as a wakeup call.
At a personal level; I once agreed to take on a friend's little one for a few preliminary lessons, on the understanding that I didn't have a formal piano qualification (although a music degree and teacher training) as he was a shy little thing, and if he didn't respond to a new teacher, we'd never know if it was his natural diffidence or lack of potential. I agreed, and acquired his little friend as well.
It soon became apparent that he had some capability, and his Mum looked around for a "proper" piano teacher. His little friend was a sweet child, but it was painfully obvious that her weekly session with me was her only contact with the keyboard. A 6-year-old who practises without reminder is a rare beast, I'm not blaming her. I think Mum liked the idea of daughter playing the piano, but had no inclination for the grunt work of encouraging practice; at that age, five or ten minutes can work, provided it's every day.
I couldn't bear it any longer, so tried to let mum down gently. She offered me more money! I declined.
Would it be possible, as your daughter clearly likes the teacher and enjoys the lessons, to ask her piano teacher to raise the possibility with her of stopping at the end of the year, as no progress is being made? Not in a threatening way, but just being realistic. You're not preventing her from playing the piano, just changing the way she learns new things.
A good teacher will not lack for pupils if your daughter drops out.

My kids have always been told that we will pay for lessons etc as long as they give the same in effort. You stop trying we stop paying. My eldest went to piano and enjoyed it in as much as the teacher was lovely etc but she couldn't be arsed to practice so it was stopped.

I agree with @TatianaLarina here, the best teachers can be judged by what their students have achieved. However, this is all about what you are aiming for here. Your child may not need the very best, they may need just very good because you want her to achieve a reasonable playing level for her own enjoyment rather than entry to a conservatoire and a musical career. It's likely that such teachers attract the motivated students/parents who are heading in that direction and so to some extent it's a self fulfilling prophecy. My child's teacher is younger and unproven as a teacher, but he's an excellent musician and inspires my son.

What's clear is that the current tuition/practice method isn't working and now you should just look at things flexibly and decide what might work best for your child. Keep reviewing. As you are tied into the current school for a while I would have more frequent conversations with her current teacher re approach and see if things improve. You've already thought about how practice could work - keep thinking and reviewing that too. Research alternatives to this school, it's maybe not the right fit for her. Maybe do a trial on one of those apps and see if that suits her, I don't recommend them on their own as a replacement for music tuition but they can have the ability to help you achieve what seems like a lot pretty quickly which can give a real boost to someone who isn't progressing. Even time out from lessons can give people a renewed energy when they come back to it, quite a few on this thread are evidence of that, so do consider stopping it with a view to reinstating if she misses it, you might find that actually accelerates things so time isn't lost.