To ask if you drank alcohol during pregnancy

[Butterflyflower1234]

I'm curious as to people thoughts on alcohol during pregnancy?

I was always of the opinion that I wouldn't touch a single drop of alcohol during pregnancy but now I'm wondering would it be significantly harmful to have say one small glass of wine with dinner every so often (less than once a fortnight).

Yes, but they do.

As do the Italians and pretty much the entire medical profession.

They haven't done that for no reason

No. Never. It’s just 9 months. It’s a want not a need. No matter how low risk, why risk at all? (And I love a glass of wine)

The flippancy is what is minimising it.

Risk is an odd thing really. A tiny risk of an inconsequential thing is not worth worrying about.

A tiny risk of a profound thing is worth taking seriously. That is what we're talking about.

It's a 'it'll never happen to me' attitude.

It might.

They haven't done that for no reason

It’s whether the reasons are valid and legitimate
Which is what the likes of Emily Oster questions.

The flippancy is what is minimising it.

Let’s have a specific quote then.

bowkerchops, I am very sorry to hear of your miscarriage and want to tell you that it is very unlikely indeed - vanishingly unlikely - that your having drunk alcohol caused it. You have no need whatsoever for guilt, let alone guilt that will be with you forever.

The sort of moralising about alcohol on this thread and others is what induces this sort of unnecessary guilt, and the upset of the poor woman on last week's thread terrified by all the stuff about just one drink posing a threat and genuinely considering termination because she had drunk before she knew she was pregnant. So that's a real risk, real harm, right there.

Risk is an odd thing really. A tiny risk of an inconsequential thing is not worth worrying about.

A tiny risk of a profound thing is worth taking seriously. That is what we're talking about.

It's a 'it'll never happen to me' attitude.

Yet you don’t apply ANY of that to cars. That’s terribly inconsistent. Yet you can’t even process that apparently.

But if you come charging on saying you took no risks, you need to be prepared to have your inconsistencies pointed out to you

Bollox! I neither ‘charged on’ or was inconsistent. I answered an explicit question. There is a risk getting up in the morning - but the risk of consuming alcohol is not a risk I personally was prepared to take while considering my unborn child’s welfare. My view - you have your view

A tiny risk of a profound thing is worth taking seriously. That is what we're talking about.

Nobody would ever fly anywhere. Or take paracetamol.

Emily Ostler is an economist.

She understands risk very well but doesn't have the contextual knowledge that say, a professor of epidemiology might. Or the entire medical profession, actually.

I read her book during pregnancy actually and from memory, I think she advocates one drink a day? Or was it a week? Anyway, it's certainly quite a bit more than even medical advice from five to ten years ago.

I'd certainly trust her findings from an economic perspective.

Are serious car crashes inconsequential?

I don't think the car travel comparison works at all. Serious car accidents are rare. The effect of a car journey on the baby is usually none. When you have a drink you are putting alcohol into a developing baby's system every single time. There is currently no evidence that doing this from time to time causes harm but really it's impossible to know if the baby would have been slightly different without this happening. It's a risk that many of think is unnecessary.

People saying there's no proof of harm don't get that the reason there's no proof is because it's unethical to even do the study because we know alcohol harms babies. What we don't know is the dose response and we never will because it's completely unethical to do so

Not a good point.

There are plenty of studies, albeit many are retrospective. bingbang has helpfully linked to some - and none of them show any evidence that half a glass of champagne at a wedding when you’re 24 weeks harms the baby.

Serious car accidents that damage and kill fetuses definitely happen oysterbabe, we know this. Whereas we have no evidence that harm has ever been caused by one drink every now and then. The comparison is, if anything, too kind to the risk of nonessential car use.

I quite understand you feeling that moderate alcohol consumption is an unnecessary risk, but its not a position that can be sustained if you refuse to accept that inessential car journeys are also an unnecessary risk.

I don't think the car travel comparison works at all. Serious car accidents are rare

So is FAS if you have occasional alcohol in pregnancy. Non existent in fact, unless someone wants to show me where it happened.

Driving to the shops when you could stay home and get your shopping delivered Is risky - why risk getting into a car? well, because for 9 months you need to get on with your life. You don’t cease to exist as an independent human being and become an inanimate incubator. Same with alcohol. Special occasions still happen, and women who understand the total lack of any evidence to suggest that half a glass to toast a special occasion has any adverse effect at all, want to try to still live a little during pregnancy.

Honestly, FFS women give up enough to bear our children. A colleague is literally on crutches with her SPD. Another friend was in hospital for over 2 Months with placenta praevia. Other are sick/hyperemesis, low blood pressure, risk of incontinence or prolapse from the pregnant - for most of us, we have a fucking tough enough time being pregnant. The judgment and comments about women who want to get through it with a small amount of alcohol every now and then is disgusting.

"People saying there's no proof of harm don't get that the reason there's no proof is because it's unethical to even do the study because we know alcohol harms babies."

The studies are there to show that many women don't find out that they are pregnant until at least 6 weeks and binge drink during that time. As said, there's lots of retrospective studies done for later pregnancy and if anything people always underestimate their drinking.

There's threads by pregnant posters asking about going out during the storms and other posters are laughing at them. But the risk of getting hit by flying debris or having to stand, stuck because there's no public transport and that causing your blood pressure etc to spiral, is a greater risk than an odd glass of wine.

The same if someone talks about needing to climb a ladder in late pregnancy (something I wouldn't do).

It's upto everyone to evaluate their own risks, or based on evidence we'd be under house arrest at times.

There is a risk getting up in the morning - but the risk of consuming alcohol is not a risk I personally was prepared to take while considering my unborn child’s welfare.

If you’d said that, no problem. I’m pretty sure you said you took ‘no risks’ though, which is rather different.

@Ponoka7 Those studies are retrospective they aren't prospective randomised studies. And they don't have long term follow up data. If your bar of 'harm' is having FAS that's a fairly low bar. And that's really all those studies did measure. You will never know how many IQ points got knocked off other long term chance of cancer etc because you can't do the study. There is a BIG difference in deciding to get in a car that you need to do to go about your daily life and willingly drinking something that is poisonous to the baby with no available dose effect data - none.

She understands risk very well but doesn't have the contextual knowledge that say, a professor of epidemiology might. Or the entire medical profession, actually.*

The entire medical profession isn't quite right. Many individual clinicians will green light the odd glass of wine. My midwife did last year, many GPs do routinely. The advice a clinician gives a individual can be different to general advice, this is based on their own risk assessment.

What you're talking about is guidelines from medical bodies and groups. These will never suggest 'safe' drinking because this is very easy to misinterpret, and if just 3% of pregnant women misunderstand and drink excessively you will get some tragic outcomes.

But there is research, highlighted in Oyster's review, that suggests there is no risk associated with actual very-low (less than 2 units once a week) use of alcohol after the first trimester.

Think about it, when the guideline was 1-2 units once or twice a week, was there an epidemic of FAS disorders? No. Is it worth health bodies saying 'no, never' to prevent tragedy by an unclear message? Probably. For women it remains an individual choice.

I did drink a very small glass 5-6 times after the 1st Tri, I reviewed the research and felt very safe doing so. For what it's worth (very little), I'm a nurse, and my pregnant friend who is a doctor agreed and did the same. Infact, everyone in my NCT had before we met eachother.

You will never know how many IQ points got knocked off other long term chance of cancer etc because you can't do the study.

If you’re taking it down that route, then why only alcohol? There are loads of non optimal things that could compromise IQ/health down the line.

Lots of us could have been fitter, younger, thinner when we had our babies. It’s possible that this made a difference to the stuff you’re talking about.

Not to mention our fruit and veg intake, our sugar intake, saturated fat intake. I could go on and on.

Think about it, when the guideline was 1-2 units once or twice a week, was there an epidemic of FAS disorders? No. Is it worth health bodies saying 'no, never' to prevent tragedy by an unclear message? Probably. For women it remains an individual choice.

This.

A few more risks we all take:

• Eating in restaurants. Food poisoning and listeria could have a devastating impact on a pregnancy

• Owning a cat. Toxoplasmosis can cause profound physical and intellectual disabilities

My DC are 16 and 14 so I might do things differently if I were pregnant now.

Drank alcohol before I knew I was pregnant with both of them.

Didn’t drink in the first trimester as was being sick most of the time.

Drank maybe a couple of glasses of wine a week with DS from about week 20to about week 25. Did coincide with being on holiday for part of it. Then felt too eurgh in general.

With DD I didn’t really drink alcohol at all but more because I didn’t feel like it

My daughter was born with an optical problem which can never be repaired. It is thought to be caused by a teratogenic event. A teratogen is alcohol. It may or may not have been caused by the one tiny glass of wine I had but I have to live with that and she has to live with the eye condition,

I would advise no alcohol in pregnancy is safe. Yes you may be lucky and have a perfect baby but you may not. Do you want that risk.

Abnormalities caused by exogenous agents (certain chemicals or viruses, radiation, or hyperthermia) are called disruptions. The agents responsible for these disruptions are called teratogens.* Most teratogens produce their effects only during certain critical periods of development. The most critical time for any organ is when it is growing and forming its structures. Different organs have different critical periods, but the time from period from day 15 through day 60 of gestation is critical for many human organs. The heart forms primarily during weeks 3 and 4, while the external genitalia are most sensitive during weeks 8 and 9. The brain and skeleton are always sensitive, from the beginning of week 3 to the end of pregnancy and beyond.

I just think why would you play Russian roulette with something that's been neither proved nor disproved it harmful? surely it's better to err on the side of caution and just not, its really not for a long time. each to their own though