Child at Nursery

[Norealclue]

Hi everyone
I have been thinking this over and just can not decide what to do so I hope that someone will be able to advise here.
There is a child at our Nursery who has been biting other children. Quite a number of the children have been bitten. Naturally the mothers of the children who have been bitten have been discussing this. It is not right that children are supposed to be enjoying nursery and learning various things while there. The children are not there to be attacked by any other child.
Discussions have been held with the Head by the relative parent of the child who was bitten on each day. It then changed so that a number of the mums have discussed that their children have been bitten. There is also some scratching as this child grabs any toy they fancy out the hands of other children. The child grabs a toy but discards it soon after. It seems to be a case of not allowing children to have the toy they want.
It turns out that the child is a "special" case in that the child is under Social Services. It is very likely that something awful has happened to this child.
This situation has been going on for over a year and while having some sympathy for the child, the other children have a right to attend nursery safely and without any damage happening to them especially as an outcome from any other person in the nursery.
The nursery have refused to move the child to another nursery, they are offering mothers of the bitten children assistance to find other nurseries for their children.
There has been sympathy for the child but this is lessening and some resentment is setting in. Could it possibly be right to allow a nursery child to attack other children and not deal with it effectively in a year. The nursery they are not given enough staff for 1 - 1 for the child. The nursery say they are doing their best. They totally refuse to move the child so it is up to other mums to decide to more their children. Would it not ring alarm bells if a nursery started losing pupils? What if other pupils arrive to take the place of the children who leave and they are bitten too.
Nurseries must have more responsibilities than this. Can anyone advise?

There are several mums worrying about this. Not just because it affects our children also because whatever troubles the other child something needs done about it. I have been told here that the ratios are wrong so none of the children are getting full support.
The nursery is walkable distance. It will likely be many of the same children going on to the same school when they reach that age. I went from nursery to end of school with the same children, it was a nice idea
I don't recall any biting or anything at my nursery but I will ask family.
I am not trying to change the nursery I just don't want my child or any other child being bitten. The Council here are very stuck, there will be no changes! What I have learned tonight is that there are not enough staff for OFSTED rules. This is risking children.
I will move my child, reluctantly, but I will.

The ratio for 2 yr olds is 1:4, however the ratio for 3 yr olds is 1:8. So as long as there are only 4, 2 yrs olds & the rest of the children are 3, then 3 staff means they are in ratio. Alternatively, 8, 2 yr olds & 7, 3yr olds would also be permitted.

@Bibijayne I would not be upset with the occasional bite but several bites in a 2.5 hour session is a bit much. Sometimes it is one child repeatedly and sometimes it is several children.
I have found the ACES video very educational for me so thanks to that Poster.

15 2-3 year olds should have 5 staff members and if they haven't got 5 members of staff, Ofsted would be very interested.

The SENCO needs to get in contact with the council who provides SENCO support and they should pay for the additional member of staff so the biter can have 1:1 thats what we did when we had a biter in our nursery

How do you know the child is involved with social services? As this should never be disclosed

Well depends how many 3 years olds.... But they need more than 3 staff with 15 children, especially if they have children with additional needs

A cared for child often comes with additional funding / support for the nursery which may mean the nursery makes more money from them than the other kids
In your dreams

BadgerStMary has got the ratio information right.
So, if the dc are all 2 - and they move up to the next group when they turn 3 - then they need 4 adults for 15 children
If you mean 2 and 3 yr olds, then they could be in ratio.

In regard to ratios it’s 1-4 for under 3 and 1-8 for over 3’s so it really depends on whether they are under 3 or 3 Plus.

We do get extra funding for children who meet the criteria for ‘deprived’ Children however it works out to be about 30p extra an hour so not really worth the paper work tbh.

Well depends how many 3 years olds.... But they need more than 3 staff with 15 children, especially if they have children with additional needs

That’s not necessarily correct it depends on how many 3 year olds and 2 year old there are.

Lots of nursery children present with SEND, but not many have formal diagnosis due to age. The nursery can and often support the child to receive one but until that point there really isn’t a lot of funding for extra staff, and even if funding is given it’s only ever 15 hours never anymore even if a child attends a lot more. Ofsted don’t like you off rolling children anymore even when it’s benefits then so nursery are a bit stuck really.

It’s just biting and it’s not going to cause any lasting damage

Children are full of bacteria - same as dogs and cats - don’t take a bite likely and seek medical assistance if the skin is broken.

tetanus should be up to date and may need antibiotics.

The nursery rooms are from in this case 2 - 3. So when a child has their 2nd birthday they move into this room. When a child has their 3rd birthday they move to the next room.
The nursery disclosed that this child was in a category and as such could not be moved. They explained what was meant by the category.
The child and their "people" are known in the local area. The child is heard to address their "people" by words that make it clear that they are not the parents. Everything is known about everyone in this area, it is just how things are. Generations of families live in the area.

Op if all the children are only 2 then the nursery has to have at least 4 members of staff for 15 children.

Ok. So basically they are all 2....

At 2 years old the ratio is 1 member of staff to 3 children.
For 15 children there should be 5 members of staff. Contact Ofsted.. Tomorrow

So the nursery is definitely operating unsafely and against Ofsted rules.

OP, look to getting your child moved. in the meantime, if your DC gets bitten, ask to speak to the manager, not the staff in the room, and say "what are you going to do to ensure this does not happen again?", and "what are you going to do to keep my child safe?" Repeat until she answers your questions. She will give you waffle about ratios and the child's background but keep repeating. This child has a right to be in a safe and secure nursery, but so does your DC.

Socrimeariver I have gone to visit another nursery today and I have checked the ratios of staff to children and they are right. They also have a load of other people there to help with running the nursery.
I have been asking why this child is still managing to bite children when we are all aware of it. While there is sympathy for the biting child I want my child to be safe and happy in the nursery, as do several other mums for their children. It should not be that we feel that our children are not as important as another child. All children should be equally important and safe. People have questioned the Head who evades any questions and it is suspicious how many times when parents are trying to talk to her a member of staff comes over with some urgent issue that she has to deal with.
I have started a letter/email to OFSTED but going to discuss this with family before sending. I don't want to be nasty but there is a limit.

Sorry you’re experiencing this op. I’ve been on both sides...I managed a nursery with an exceptionally vulnerable toddler repeatedly hurting other children and now a mum myself who sends my own toddler to nursery.

The nursery are out of ratio and need reporting for that. They probably feel hugely protective towards this child knowing their history and wanting to give them a chance, I too would have supported other mums to find another nursery for their child rather than lose the vulnerable child.

As a mum I would find my child being hurt incredibly difficult and would too want to move them.

The thing is, all you parents getting upset is understandable but isn’t actually helping anyone, not the child, not the nursery and certainly not your own children as the nursery have (rightly) said this child’s going nowhere.

In your position I’d move on with good grace and if I were to stay, I’d try to challenge the other parents a bit, and reach out to the c
Carers/child with a friendly smile, a few words of kindness or a hello.

In our situation, the most complaining/unkind and I have to say bullying parent who tried to get the vulnerable child removed returned a few years later with a sibling and guess what...that kid was a biter!

Easy to say as my child hasnt bitten or been a biter, yet, but would it be kinder, in a close knit community, to act to support the nursery as parents, to push for 1 to 1 however you can, for this poor kid rather than moving your own children and having a longer day of travelling further for pick ups and drop offs and all the transition? If you're all neighbours wouldn't it be good to all work together to get this child the support they so obviously need. You could all help put on pressure in a good way. Must be awful getting bitten, hearing about repeated incidents, but consider as a group how you can support this child as a community? I'm not being soft, or naive, well maybe I am, i just feel so sorry for the biter. Can one of their carers stay in the room for a session, to help and to see it all, like when you do settling in and stay with your child? Help to turn this babs behaviour round. Sounds like he needs to have some friends, so that this phase can pass.

@Theresnoroomonmybroom I think the Nursery have a lot to answer for. They are operating under the guidelines with child to staff ratios which is not right.
The child has been there for about a year now and the staff should now know how to deal with the child. They are qualified child care operatives who have various years of experience and they have not got a grip on this yet.
The nursery mums speak to the child and their carers and when the child first appeared with very little people gave items to help out a bit. It may be the Head's attitude or speech that gives the mums the idea that our children are of less importance. I for one want all the children to go into the nursery have fun and learn. It is horrible to leave your child wondering if there is going to be an incident today
@BrigidSt when we ask when the 1 to 1 is going to arrive we are fobbed off. The Education department are also dragging their heels and wont provide an extra member of staff for the benefit of all the children. The Council are tight with money as we can see from the staff being short before we even consider the need for a 1 - 1. Some mums offered to stay in the room in turns but because we are not employees with suitable qualifications we were told no! I have higher clearance than would be needed to be in the presence of vulnerable children. It is a different job altogether but I do have high rates of clearance.
The constant blocking of the nursery to what we think are helpful suggestions and offers.
Anyway it is not a safe place being short of staff so I am seriously considering the other nursery

Just move your child. It sounds like your trust and relationship with the nursery has completely broken down and it’ll be worse in the room for over 3s as they’ll have far fewer adults per child. Just go.

It is 1 adult to 4 children when they are 2. Not 1 to 3, DecemberSnow.

Yes @Louise my third child is two years and two months and it’s 1:4 in his excellent nursery

I would move your DC as the nursery is failing to protect many children at the expense of one. Nobody should expect to be bitten or scratched just because.
So what do they expect. Everyone should move their child for the sake of one special child. Sounds like it's not a good place for any child.

I always find people on MN's attitude to toddlers who bite bizarre and hysterical. The kid doesn't have rabies. Being bitten isn't at all nice but nor is falling over with a bang and toddlers do that all the time too - I suspect the children are getting over this a lot quicker than their parents!

I find the idea that a child should be chucked out of nursery for biting so weird.

'So, why did you give up your career, sell your house and begin to avoid human contact, again?'
'Oh, my toddler bit another child so naturally I took them straight out of any form of paid childcare and completely isolated them from all other children'
'Naturally, yes'

This happened to our child very similar situation. Very nasty bite that left a significant mark on the face. Had already happened several times. I told them I knew exactly who it was and that he wasn't to go anywhere near my daughter. They objected but he was placed on 1:1. This child also had some issues though wasn't with social services. I had some insight as it was actually my friend's nephew. I have every sympathy for a child with issues but not at the expense of my own child. The two other parents left nursery over this incident. I am sure if people start leaving it will be resolved quickly. Understand the child can't be moved but they have to manage it.

Also v odd they are helping to find other nurseries?! They won't have any customers left eventually!