To ask for your opinion on faith schools?

[Syrinx89]

That's it, really. In this day and age, it seems strange to me.

mantarays
Why do you keep confusing the right to religious education with the right for state funded religious education.

(a) The CofE and the Catholic Church do not fund the pupils at faith schools
Central government funds the pupils at faith schools
(b) The CofE and the Catholic Church do not pay for the upkeep, maintenance and improvements to faith schools
^central government funds the building and repair of faith schools
(c) The church does not own the land and buildings of faith schools
local councils own the buildings, or the academy trusts own the land and buildings
(d) Many CofE schools have no faith admission criteria at all - because they are the only school in the area.

Kicking the church out of state schools would save money as it would reduce admission costs

ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Because the precedent for state-funded religious education in return for oversight and access (for non-faith children in the case of under-subscription) was set by the State, not the Church. So to remove that funding would now count as interference.

I am glad I have raised enough questions that the christian is running away
That’s a nasty thing to say.

Istillgetjealous

She’ll be throwing me to the lions next. I’ll get my coat. 😂

I haven’t read this whole thread, but where we live, 9/10 of the top state schools are Catholic and not being Catholic, we don’t stand a chance of getting in, even if we live close to the school. I think in this day and age, this is wrong - no child should have the standard of their education dictated by religion.

@mantarays

I have no problem with private faith-based schools but I don’t think that there should be any place for state funded faith schools, especially those which are able to self-select students based on faith. I feel that all state funded schools should be secular and shouldn’t prioritise children based on religion.

Because you are being utterly disingenuous in your assumption that faith schools are for the middle class and don't cater for the poorest when actually the Catholic schools absolutely did and still do.

Catholic schools still have lower free school meal rates than their surrounding catchments, though the gap is not as pronounced as with CofE or grammars. It’s an imperfect proxy but the pattern is quite consistent and striking.

As we are arguing disingenuity, your suggestion that particularly Londoners of Catholic or Anglican faith are less likely to claim FSM, and therefore the FSM proxy consistently disadvantages how those schools appear in FSM, in a way that it does those of other faiths or none to be fairy eyebrow-raising. Particularly when studies commissioned by the NSS and others have shown that where faith selection results in lower-than-average FSM rates in a selective school, the inverse is found in non-faith schools in the local area.

There are also numerous studies and surveys on churchgoing communities which find them to be similarly disproportionately better off.

Which metric of deprivation would you like to use?

MichaelMosleyisagod

But if the schools weren’t Catholic, would they be the best schools? Have you considered that there might be something about the Catholic ethos that might be replicable, rather than simply complaining about the fact that you can’t send your children to be educated by people whose beliefs you don’t share?

^
Then good luck in your mission. I believe you will face many legal challenges, both on the basis of actual proprietorship of these schools, and on the basis of the rights of people of faith to access education within their own traditions, without state interference.^

I’m not suggesting anyone interferes with that. I’m not sure why you keep pretending otherwise?

I’m simply suggesting that - as most people of minority faiths already experience - that the state should not pay for you to exercise that right.

That historical provision where you live matches your faith is not an exercise of your right, it is in large part luck.

I’m simply suggesting that - as most people of minority faiths already experience - that the state should not pay for you to exercise that right.

And I am simply suggesting otherwise. Where that provision exists, the government should leave it alone.

But I suppose I will see you in court.

I’m not sure the umbrella term ‘faith school’ is going to be helpful if people are going to make sweeping generalisations about socioeconomic status. Especially given that MN tends to be London centric and school admissions tend to be a bit more problematic there than elsewhere.

It’s a lot more complex than that and there are likely to be differences between CoE and RC and between regions as well.

@JassyRadlett

' Londoners of Catholic or Anglican faith are less likely to claim FSM, and therefore the FSM proxy consistently disadvantages how those schools appear in FSM, in a way that it does those of other faiths or none to be fairy eyebrow-raising. Particularly when studies commissioned by the NSS and others have shown that where faith selection results in lower-than-average FSM rates in a selective school, the inverse is found in non-faith schools in the local area.'

This doesn't make sense.

We know because we know these communities. We know how difficult it is to get some of those people to trust in any paperwork.

It is a different world.

I trust my experience.

For the record, I dont have any benefit in either system either - I am thinking of the poorest people and I know where I see them. I don't have children, have nothing to gain and personally think a secular system is the answer now - it is the attack on faith schools based on incorrect information or bigotry I dislike. As I said, upthread, the free schools system is there - build your own schools.

I also think a lot of it is about attacking poorer communities who aspire to more, particularly immigrant communities.

Girlinterruption

Will you accept the figures when you see them on the DfE email responding to an FOI request? Or is that still not a good enough source?

accordcoalition.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Faith-school-funding-FOI.-17th-September-2019.pdf

But if the schools weren’t Catholic, would they be the best schools? Have you considered that there might be something about the Catholic ethos that might be replicable, rather than simply complaining about the fact that you can’t send your children to be educated by people whose beliefs you don’t share?

There’s actually quite strong evidence that faith schools only perform better when they are oversubscribed and therefore able to select their intakes - similar to other selective schools.

Where’s @BertrandRussell when you need her? She’s got these stats down including some good studies on progress measures.

I think people have little acknowledgement of history when it comes to the discussion of abolishing faith schools.

The decision to incorporate Catholic schools into the state’s education programme was always going to be an unpopular one. However, it finally allowed Catholics to feel that they were being classified as equal citizens by the authorities.

I'm sure if your families had went through the same kind of discrimination as some Catholic families then you might understand why Catholic people fight for them to remain.

There’s actually quite strong evidence that faith schools only perform better when they are oversubscribed and therefore able to select their intakes - similar to other selective schools.

But they aren’t selective on the basis of wealth. They are selecting on the basis of Catholicism. And anyone can access Catholicism.

So what we appear to have here is a complaint that a group of people minding their own business and attempting to provide a faith-based education for their own children are doing it so well that it’s not fair on the people who don’t share their faith.

Sour grapes, I’m afraid. If there is something good about a Catholic education, emulate it. But leave people of faith alone to continue to do what they do well.

Or alternatively, set up a secular school and run it like a boss.

We know because we know these communities. We know how difficult it is to get some of those people to trust in any paperwork.

You are suggesting that the FSM measure cannot be used to determine relative deprivation in schools because of incomplete take up.

For that to be true, take up rates would have to be inconsistent between Christian and non-Christian communities, with Christian communities having consistently lower FSM take up among those entitled to them. Otherwise the proxy, while unreliable in absolute terms, can still provide population-level indication of relative deprivation between selective and non-selective systems.

Is there evidence that this is the case?

www.suttontrust.com/our-research/selective-comprehensives-2017-state-school-attainment/

“ Faith schools are among the most socially selective group of top schools, more than three times as selective as non-faith schools, and make up 33.4% of the list.”

Key Findings

There are well over 1,000 primary schools where the free school meals proportion is over 10 percentage points lower than that found in the neighbourhoods from which they recruit.
These socially selective primary schools are more likely to be found in London and other urban areas. They are often schools with a religious character who have chosen to apply religious oversubscription criteria.
www.suttontrust.com/our-research/caught-out/

Children are in school for 36 weeks a year, 35 hours a week
1,260 hours a year
so they are NOT in school
7,506 hours a year

If families want to teach the children about their parents' faith they can do it with their own money during the latter period
not at taxpayer expense during the former

If families want to teach the children about their parents' faith they can do it with their own money during the latter period

Once more, it is NOT about teaching ‘about’ the faith. Faith isn’t knowledge. It is something you live and practice, and people of faith often want it to be integral to education. People without faith don’t. So putting them in separate places so everyone can have what they want makes sense.

I don't like them, but I think getting rid of compulsory worship is more important.

We have mostly faith schools as old victorian buildings and the way it's always been here. School and Church.
Some are religious and others not much difference than the odd community school we have here.
People just tend to go to their nearest.