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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To expect a 4 year old to know right from wrong?

226 replies

Bubbaloo · 01/09/2007 22:02

I went over to a friend the other week with both my ds's,who are 26 months and 4 months old.She also has 2 boys-a nearly 2 year old and a nearly 4 year old and both her boys drove me mad from the moment we arrived.Ds2 was asleep in his car seat but they wouldn't leave him alone and were prodding and poking him so much that they scratched his face.After a few minutes they woke him up and we had screaming for about 40 minutes.I explained he was trying to sleep,but they took no notice and were even climbing over me to get to ds2 when I took him out of his carrier.Anyway,the boys eventually went and played in the garden and ds2 went to sleep again.After an hour or so my friend did us some lunch.Beforehand her eldest boy must've asked me 5 times if ds2 was going to have lunch with them and I explained that he had no teeth,was still a baby at 4 months old and that he only drank milk.He seemed to understand.While the boys were eating their lunch and ds2 was asleep I went into the kitchen to get my coffee and within about 2 minutes he was screaming.I went back into the living room to find her eldest son bent over ds2's car seat and I couldn't believe what I saw-ds2 had 2 large chunks of cheese and bread shoved in his mouth and bread all over his top.I was absolutely livid and told my friends boy off,telling him that it was naughty aswell as dangerous and that the baby could've choked.I was even more annoyed due to the fact I had explained to him earlier that he only has milk.After about another 20 mins ds1 was getting tired so I made my excuses and left...pronto.
My friend has since emailed me but I haven't replied yet as I'm still really wound up.
AIBU to expect her son to know right from wrong,when it's already been explained to him?

OP posts:
deepinlaundry · 03/09/2007 04:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gess · 03/09/2007 08:14

I would expect ds2 (when aged 4) to do what he;s told and remember and not stuff food in a baby's mouth. I woudn't expect ds3 (now 2- but far more opinionated and single minded and do what he wants than ds2), I certainly wouldn't trust ds1 not to (although he's not that interested in babies so usually safe enough around them).

Different children. These were boisterous on that day, perhaps they were winding each other up (ds2 and ds3 certainly wind each other up into a frenzy some days- when they're both be quite sensible separately).

Hardly the worst thing a child of 3 could do.

I don't buy all this 'oh I'll see my friend without child x, and only child y" malarkey. If you can't cope with/don't lke a friend's kid the friendship isn't worth it. There are plenty of people who look at ds1 as if he's a freak from another plant or look embarrassed and nervous when he's around. I certainly don't spend my time when he's not around catching up with them. We prefer to see people who accept the whole family.

Original poster
Bubbaloo · 03/09/2007 08:49

He is normally well behaved when we're out as I suppose he has more to occupy himself,so I don't mind meeting up to go out,but I won't be going back around her house with ds2.
It is also ridiculous for some of you to think there is any form of hatred from me to this child.I certainly don't hate him(or any other child OR adult),but I just think he should've been better behaved and his mum should've told him so.
In future I won't ask for people's opinions on here as it gets blown out of all proportion and I'm sure that is why there are so many "lurkers" on Mumsnet,who don't post.
Ok,I may have worded the original question wrong but the main reason I started this thread is because 2 other friends agreed with me and even went as far as to say they would've walked out and would cut tie's with my friend,for her not telling him off,which beleive it or not,I think is a bit OTT and not worth falling out with her over.

OP posts:
gess · 03/09/2007 08:54

Well sorry but your friend's sound barking (are they mothers of babies). They'll have no friend's left by the tim ehtier kids get to school if they're that OTT about normal pre-school behaviour.

Did you friend find her son feeding the baby? If so yes I would have expected her to tell him to stop, but if you found him and told him off anyway why would your friend have to tell him off again?

lizziemun · 03/09/2007 08:58

Bubbaloo,

I wasn't around much yesterday, but i think you are right a 4 year should understand right /from wrong. But i'm old fashioned in the fact children should be disciplined and explained to what is right from wrong at an early age.

Dd is now 3.7 and she understood the word NO from about 9mths (when she started to walk).

I would expect once it had been explained that she shouldn't climb over you or poke the baby that she stop. If she didn't then she would be removed from the room.

As for poster saying that it your fault because you went to get a coffee and you shouldn't leave a baby with toddlers then i can only suggest they are either perfect or do not have more then one child.

SleeplessInTheStaceym11House · 03/09/2007 09:00

ok i thikn your getting a short shrift here, i would expect a 4yr old to listen when told not to do things, ie not wake the baby and not feed he baby! my dd managed to nderstand those basic concepts at about 20 months old!

even now at 10 months ds is having 'dont touch the baby' instilled into him!

i wouldnt ruina friendip over it tho, maybe suggest why you got angry and see what she says!

JodieG1 · 03/09/2007 09:05

My ds1 is 3.10 and while he wouldn't try to feed a baby food (we have a baby and so he knows that he couldn't eat food until 6 months) he does wake him up a lot still. He just can't be quiet or seem to control himself. He finds it easier to understand as he's involved with a baby in the house, I think if children aren't around a baby so much it would be different for them.

Dd would never do that but then she's 5.6.

haychee · 03/09/2007 09:21

Those 2 boys should of been told from the start how they should behave around a young baby like that. The mother obviously didnt do this sufficiently and the situation got out of control. I would of reacted just the same if it were my baby, and if it were my children that were misbehaving like this i would have no problems with the babys mother telling them off.
Perfectly acceptable imo.

Original poster
Bubbaloo · 03/09/2007 09:26

Gess-but surely when he started prod,poke and climb all over us,most mum's would've told their children to stop.Ds2 woke up and was screaming for about 30-40 mins and when they asked why I said,because he's tired and wants to sleep.Surely the majority of people would have said something and told their children to stop.

OP posts:
Original poster
Bubbaloo · 03/09/2007 09:27

X posted with you Haychee.

OP posts:
haychee · 03/09/2007 09:27

I would of threatened them with death!

Original poster
Bubbaloo · 03/09/2007 09:30

I better not agree as I'll be accused of allsorts on here.

OP posts:
Hulababy · 03/09/2007 09:32

I agree that the mum should have said something initially about the boys clambering all over and prodding the baby. If she hadn't then I would have asked them nicely not to do so, and said why. And perhaps suggesting an alternative game for them all to play to distract them.

I do however think you sound harsh over the feeding incident, although on top of all the prodding I can see why you may have lost your patience over it all. But I don't think the boys were deliberately being naughty - they just sound very inquistive and curious about the baby. The older boy was just trying to feed - in the Op you say you explained that baby only has milk because of no teeth, he probably didn't equate that wihth a dangerous type act with soft bread and cheese. He is, after all, only 3yo. He would have been too young when his only little brother was a baby to remember, and possibly has no other points of reference about dealing with babies and what they can and can't do.

haychee · 03/09/2007 09:32

Oh i know, they are quick to jump all over you here if you say one word wrong - thats it for the next 6hours!

Im passed caring about that now.

I think you reacted positively. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and im sure you wouldnt leave your baby unsupervised with those 2dc again.

gess · 03/09/2007 09:35

maybe she didn't see it as prodding- yes I probably would tell a child/children to leave a sleeping baby alone, but I might have to expect to tell them repeatedly. When ds3 was a newborn we were frequnetly around children with learning dificulties (in fact there was only one family we saw who didn't have children with learning difficulties) and to be honest I just held him. You can tell a 3 year old to stop doing somthing, but they're not necessarily going to always stop and that doesn't always indicate terribly parentinng etc.

What is really being missed on this thread is that I (and I think others on here) would think a 2 year old LESS likely to be a nuisance around a baby than a 3 or 4 year old. IME 3/4 year olds are often more intersted. An interested child is more dangerous than an uninterested one.

Hulababy · 03/09/2007 09:36

I agree gess - older toddlers/children are much more likely to be fascinated by babies IME.

TellusMater · 03/09/2007 09:37

I think it's reasonable for a 4 year old to know right from wrong for the big stuff, but this wasn't the big stuff. It was curiosity. And even having had things explained, there is still room for a bit of experimentation. It's one of the things you will grow to love about your own children I expect. But it does mean they need a pretty close eye kept on them...

I do think their mother should have intervened. I don't leave my dd (3.6) around babies because I know she is utterly fascinated with them. But she was making lunch, and therefore perhaps expected you to keep an eye on things.

gess · 03/09/2007 09:37

TBH I just wouldn't bother seeing the friend again- you obviously can't cope with her boys boisterousness. You think she's not strict enough. It's not going to work.

gess · 03/09/2007 09:39

yep- hula- and that's what made the children with learning difficulties dangerous - they were all fascinated, but of course had no understanding of danger. Luckily ds1 is entirely uninterested in babies (once he's sniffed them), or ds3's newborn years would have been a nightmare!

pagwatch · 03/09/2007 09:47

yep gess - bigger kids are far more interested. And the child was three not four - although 'nearly four'.
I think a child who has a baby in the house is also less of a problem. No novelty value.
when we got our puppy our kids - including nearly three year old ( and child with LD's)- all behaved brilliantly. Children visiting the house,even impeccably behaved ones' had to be watched closely as "oooh look at the puppy" drove all clearly understood verbal instructions out of their heads

Original poster
Bubbaloo · 03/09/2007 10:10

Pagwatch-Yes,he is 3 but if you want to be precise then he's 42 days away from his 4th birthday,which is why I said "nearly 4".
Gess-I will stay friends with his mum,but if it happens again with no intervention from her,then I probably won't.Like I said,he's normally fine.

OP posts:
HorseyWoman · 03/09/2007 11:05

lizziemum, when you KNOW that the other children in the room are likely to 'mess' with the baby, you don't leave it. Simple as. There was another adult around who could bring coffee to OP, or OP could have waited til she was around and gone and got it.

I'm not perfect but neither do I leave small children alone. My smallest charge was 20 months when I started working there; I took him to the loo with me. You just can't take chances, especially when you have seen the children poking/prodding/scratching.

Although I do accept it was only for 2 minutes. That was long enough, though, wasn't it? For a child to show some nurture I mean?

HorseyWoman · 03/09/2007 11:06

In any case, I am surprised this thread is still continuing: the OP knows she's NBU, so energy is wasted by carrying on.

divastrop · 03/09/2007 11:08

well all i can say is,if leaving a 4 year old unsupervised for a couple of minutes with a baby is wrong then i better stop going to the toilet

and with the utmost respect,i dont think a mother of just girls could have any concept of how boisterous boys can be,nor how many times they need to be told something before it sinks in(she says,having told ds2 to get dressed about 50 times since 7am and he still hasnt put his t-shirt on,yet 21 months old dd tried to dress herself as soon as i got her clothes out).

pagwatch · 03/09/2007 11:10

bub.
I know you are feeling got at but I wasn't picking at you - just other have said that a four year old should know x or y and there is a difference.
Nearly four is still three whilst four could mean nearly five. My daughter of four very nearly five would not in a million years touch anything or anyone she was told not to. A year ago however I would still be pretty confident but if she was 'trying to help' I could not be 100% - her ability to retain even clear instruction and her reduced understanding of consequences would have made me hesitate. With this age group even months make differences.
FWIW as I said before I think it upset you , which is understandable, and your postings have just been a little emotional which have made this thread a bit more heated than it probably justifies