If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

Haven’t read the full thread but just to add - I did extremely well at a hugely underachieving secondary school, because it made me work. I always had the thought in my head “I have to work hard because I have to get out of here! I cannot stay in this shitty town!” So the motivation to study, achieve, and be able to move away was all around me, every single day at school. That’s the reason why I did well.

For my own DC though - we’ve chosen to have 2 children not 3 so that we can afford private education. I don’t want them mixing with some of the drug-taking, violent bullies I had to share classrooms with.

Doesn't everyone want the best for their kids? It doesn't matter if your kids bright enough to do well anywhere, if the choice is between a shit school or a good one (or even between a good school and an outstanding one) why would you not go for the best one? (Assuming all other things are equal).

Because they like to keep their kids away from the riff raff. Simple

It's really interesting. I went to my local comp, which was not a good school. I did ok. But I absolutely would have done better academically at one of the local private schools. These weren't hugely expensive and swanky private schools, but they were selective.

However, I would also have done better at a better comprehensive. It wasnt that I went to a comp that was the problem. It was that I went to a particularly bad one. They didn't have enough students for some of the science A Levels so they combined the lower and upper 6th classes. That worked about as well as you'd expect. Nobody got enough teaching time because the teacher was trying to do two classes at once.

I'm not sure if that would happen at any comp now. They probably just wouldn't offer the A Level. And that's the problem sometimes. Swankier school, more money, more courses on offer, more opportunities.

We live somewhere with grammars and I don't know if we'll try and go for them. Despite my experience I'd still rather stick with comprehensives. But I need to think about what suits my children, not what suits my political beliefs.

If your children is really bright they will do well wherever they go (unless they fall in with the wrong crowd, as did my sister).

I went to a rubbish school and I did very well (all A*s and As) - I just find academic stuff really easy. And I went to Oxford - these days it works to your advantage to have gone to a state school if you apply to Oxbridge. Given two applicants with similar grades, one of whom went to a private school and the other to a state school, and 9 times out of 10 the state school student will get the place (quite right too).

Having said that, I do feel that my schooling has put me at a disadvantage in my career, in that I don’t have the confidence and polish of those who went to a private school. I earn a very good salary but I don’t see myself ever making it to the top of my career as that confidence and aspiration was never instilled in me at school - even though I know that in terms of academic ability I am better than many of those who are at the top.

I really wish private schools were banned actually. It’s just not fair is it?

@knobblybobbly

I'm very similar, the lurch of hopelessness I'd feel if my child HAD to go to my old high school or similar...I'd put a lot of effort into making sure their were options.

We are looking at private school for DD. She is bright and will learn anywhere, but on a personal level, there are things she will gain from private education that aren’t usually that well dealt with in the state system. She struggles with confidence in her abilities, she coasts along without going the extra mile. Because she is in the top groups she isn’t challenged or encouraged at all. She ticks the box and that’s good enough for them. I can’t blame the teachers because with a whole bunch of other kids who need help to improve, they have to prioritise. DD gets so bored she is beginning to dislike school. For a girl who has loved everything about it so far, that’s worrying.

I really wish private schools were banned actually. It’s just not fair is it?

Life isn’t fair.

Will you ban private after school activities too? Luxury holidays? Expensive clothing brands? Shall we all just shop at Lidl?

"Life isn't fair".

Problem is that we live in a society where people pretend that life is fair and that equality of opportunity exists. Go look at any thread to do with benefits or council housing on MN for further evidence.

Until we do something to reduce the unfairness o life we need to remember that it is not fair.

The people who are guiltiest of not acknowledging this are people who benefit from the inequality

If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

Could also be because you don't want your DC interacting with certain children, who behave as they do because of their parents.

Back in the day my parents didn't want us in the local school, because of the bad language from both the kids and parents....swearing every other word. She used to see the kids fighting a lot as well...very rough.

We moved away after a couple of years to a better area.

I wouldn't want a negative influence on my DC, which is pretty much inevitable in that kind of environment.

I also believe certain schools have better teachers. Some credit for good results is down to good teaching standards.

I really wish private schools were banned actually. It’s just not fair is it?

You could say this about anything though. Private health care, designer clothes..anything expensive and not affordable to everyone.

Some people work hard for what they have....why shouldn't they and their families benefit?

My DC didn't go to private school, but if I could afford it, they would have done. They got a good education at catholic schools...but I would never have had them in a community type school.

I'm not resentful of those who have a private education.

Could also be because you don't want your DC interacting with certain children, who behave as they do because of their parents

That's a good reason for not choosing private school.

God I hate the “life isn’t fair” argument.

No it isn’t until we do something about it. Children can’t help being born black, gay, female, clever or whatever. We try and level the field.
Of course money buys you a better education. But how can you not be shocked that 7% are privately educated but hold 50% of the top jobs?

It’s like the females in the boardroom in reverse. We don’t say “ life’s not fair” to women, we work hard to find systems to get more women in the boardroom.

DH was actually pretty anti Private schools, didn’t seethe need. He went to a very good Comp (recently converted from Grammar) and did well academically and got a good job. I did no better the him despite my Private education
When we were looking at schools for DD he just kept saying that she would be fine at the Comp, she was very bright and surely bright kids do well anywhere - he did
So we visited the 2 comps she might get into and he though they were ok, then we visited a Private school. He was pretty quiet during the Private school visit and then on the way home he said “Right, that’s where she’s going”. The facilities, the engagement by staff and pupils and the overall atmosphere and ethos was so different.
I’m not saying you don’t get good or even great Comprehensive schools but they weren’t available to us where we live.

Haven't RTFT but don't know if anyone has mentioned NI yet? It is an entirely selective system with very, very few truly comprehensives. The 'secondary' schools quite likely only teach to a certain grade level (there will be no push to get A*'s) and you are limited in subject choice. There is no way you can really compare the two and say a bright child will do just as well. It's very unfair.

For the private schools are unfair people - would you move area if the only school available was a bad comp/grammar/private? What about people who cannot move? Good comps are better than bad privates - and people think it’s a better use of money to move to an area with a good/outstanding school. I guess lottery admission would make things fairer - to prevent postcode lottery.

Also - why have selection at 6th form and uni? I guess anti-selection people are mainly anti-early selection rather than full comprehensive education throughout (including uni)?

Yeah that’s rubbish. Depends on the child. Some bright kids are easily distracted, decide that ditching school work to hang out with the cool kids, start smoking weed just like all the rest of them. Put them in a school with loads of disruption and where the school has lower ambitious for the kids in general then they prob won’t so as well.
I went from a rough school to a grammar with discipline and the difference was astonishing. It’s just easier to work and focus when everyone around you is doing the same. And there were lots of kids at my first school who would have thrived in the grammar environment as I did. They weren’t deemed a ‘ right’ as me though so didn’t get the chance.

‘Bright’

DCs go to a good comprehensive and have done well so far. They are both bright but also need to work hard to achieve potential.
I don’t think a grammar would’ve suited them - too much pressure from what I hear from others.
I am sure, though, if they’d gone to a bad comp then DS especially would have not done well at all because he is lazy!
I can see why people put their kids through grammar or send privately as there’s no good comprehensive alternative (grammar is still state school for those who’ve used comp and state interchangeably).

I gave some experience of support work in seconarschools and have two kids of that age. I have come ccriss kids who will always struggle with academia no matter where they attend. Bright kids who with support in poor schools can manage. It's the middle of the road kids that often get overlooked but again it's support that can help. Most of it however Comes from the child if the desire to learn is there followed by the support then yes they will thrive anywhere. The facilities of private school alone will never be enough, if the child's desire to learn and improve is not there or support where need doesn't materialise then you may as well burn your money.

Just to add private can be great but only if the child grabs it with both hands and wants to go for it.
You can lead a horse to water and all that......

My DS was assessed in primary by a psychologist as they thought he might have ADHD or something. Turns out he has extremely high IQ. Went to one of best selective schools in UK and achieved very average results. Now at uni and seems to have tapped in to his intelligence and finally he works.

DD goes to same school, is bright but has an amazing work ethic and does very well. However I don't get the feeling she is surrounded by peers with similar approach to education but is surrounded by peers who have a lot of additional tutoring. And DD whilst valued by teachers does not have an easy time with peers. So in my experience no school would have made my DS work as he needed to find something he loved and I suspect DD may be one of those kids who works wherever she goes but I don't know.

Both went to a primary with significant challenges.

I went to a poor primary school and pre O levels, extremely poor secondary. I was very lucky in that we moved just before that and I went to an average comprehensive. I had one excellent teacher, he gave a group of us extra lessons and all five of us got 4th term Oxbridge places. We were the first people from the school to go there.
I was the first person in my family to go to university.

My 2 DC did well at yet another uninspiring primary school because I helped them at home as did my DH. We couldn’t afford private school ( due to debts from ill health) until just before GCSEs for my DS. He was having such a bad time that my PILs have paid. It has been life changing for him especially, as he was severely bullied whereas my DD was mainly left alone.

My SIL has successfully (in academic and mental health terms) educated 4 in the state system in a different area with much better schools.

A good friend of mine has a child who had a severe mental health episode at one of the most selective schools in the country. He couldn’t cope with the pressure.

It is all about the individual school, the attitude of the staff and whether it is a good fit for a specific child. An engaged parent recognises this and does their best to find what works for their child. It’s not about state or private being better in my opinion. What is a disgrace is that there are so many poor schools in both sectors and little choice for a lot of parents.

I think we’d all be delighted if the individual child was even considered within the state system. That’s why parents sell their souls to pay for private. Even if it’s not truly individualised to meet the needs of the child they let the parents think it is unlike state that basically look at you as if you’ve lost your mind wanting an actual report that is about your child once a year.