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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Vaping colleague: problem

100 replies

northernstar0412 · 27/01/2020 13:39

Hi, I've been offered a permanent part-time job at a place where I've worked occasionally as a freelancer for some time.

The pay is good and it's a nice office, where I get on with everyone and the work is enjoyable. I've struggled financially for a while as a freelancer and this security, albeit part time, will really help.

I was there in recent days and a colleague was sitting across the desk from me vaping. I am asthmatic and I started to cough and it triggered a mild asthma attack. I still don't feel right today. This colleague was the person in charge for the night, and I didn't know what to say or do, so I just suffered in silence.

I rang a friend afterwards saying I was thinking about bailing out of the job offer because of this. He is not the big boss but the deputy supervisor and he is a really nice bloke and I get on with him well. I don't want to get him into trouble either or be the office "grass" and have everyone hate me!

My friend suggested talking to him about my health issue and saying that I would need to sit a reasonable distance away from him if he is vaping at his desk. She said this would be better than going straight to the more senior boss who's offered me the job and saying that this is an issue for me, as a starting point. Then if he carries on or I can't resolve it, to take the next step of telling the big boss.

I know for a fact that it is not company policy for people to vape inside the office but it seems to be tolerated in this department. I would be embarrassed to leave a job after a couple of months because of this.
What would you do?

OP posts:
LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 17:39

VanGoghsDog Interesting post.

Banning chargers is fair enough, assuming you also banned phone chargers etc.

Why were people vaping in the loos if it was allowed anyway?

Was this before the PHE guidance came out? Can you understand why they don't recommend blanket bans?

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 17:43

Why is it not good around computers?

Yes, I've never heard this one.

VanGoghsDog · 27/01/2020 17:50

Phone charges were already banned, which I said. However, we are allowed to discriminate against certain types of charger, it's not a protected characteristic. Neither is vaping.

Why were people vaping in the loos if it was allowed anyway?

No idea, for fun? Because they are twats? Because they could sit in the quiet for a few minutes? I never asked them. We sent out regular emails reminding them not to and that it was against the building rules (which we had no control over) and I think they just did it to be "rule breakers". Shot themselves in the foot there!
It was only two people (who told me they did it).

Was this before the PHE guidance came out?

I can't remember. We looked at a lot of workplace policy guidance.

Can you understand why they don't recommend blanket bans?

Nah, I got to be a director by being thick as pig shit.

I get it - vapers think the world revolves around them and they can do whatever they like without anyone else being allowed to dislike it. Go and nit pick someone else.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 18:46

What a snarky response.

EvaHarknessRose · 27/01/2020 19:00

'hey John I don't want to be that awkward new person making totally unreasonable requests but your vaping triggered my asthma last week - shall I quit or can we work out a solution like having desks further apart or something'

VanGoghsDog · 27/01/2020 19:13

@LangClegsInSpace

That's what happens when you patronise people.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 19:18

I didn't patronise you. I wondered if you understood PHE's stance, that's all. Clearly you don't.

Bibbiditybobbidy · 27/01/2020 19:33

I’d speak up,

VanGoghsDog · 27/01/2020 19:37

@LangClegsInSpace

Did you have any specific reasons for doing this, aside from 'it seemed like common sense to me'?

So, this isn't patronising then? I mean - it is.
Especially as I never said I put the policy in place specifically because it seemed like common sense or even that being one of the criteria.

And then the rest of your replies.

Defensive, protecting your addiction instead of confronting it.

Halloweenbabyy · 27/01/2020 19:45

Do you have inhailers ? Take them to work with you and use it as he uses his fag. Might give him the hint he needs.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 19:49

It wasn't clear from your initial post what reasons you had for your workplace-wide ban, beyond your assertion that it seemed like common sense. You didn't mention any other reasons.

Defensive, protecting your addiction instead of confronting it.

I don't give a shit about my addiction, I care about not dying a decade early from a miserable smoking related illness. And I care about not causing actual measurable harm to those around me. Sorry if that pisses you off.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 19:52

Do you have inhailers ? Take them to work with you and use it as he uses his fag. Might give him the hint he needs.

Or maybe just talk to him like a grown up.

mumwon · 27/01/2020 20:03

I like the fact (not) that the vaping ONLY as a vasoconstrictor when its being smoked & gets better afterwards -um that the point with asthma when something irritates your affected lungs they tend to time to recover (I say this as someone who has family members with severe asthma) There is also an issue about people not buying their vaping capsules or the chargers from reputable sources (ie online or off some suspect market stalls) as mentioned in several sources if the vape is over heated it changes the chemicals & the whole point of vaping was to help people give up not to maintain the smoking habit long term because it is cheaper & you can bypass smoking rules - it simply isn't fair for people (especially like the op) who have to SUFFER the consequences

Thelnebriati · 27/01/2020 20:11

Anything like dust, smoke, vapour, hairspray, perfume or silicon (think spray furniture polish) aren't good to use around computers. They can cause problems such as overheating if they clog the vents (dust and fibres), or a short circuit.
I'm surprised your IT department hasn't banned all of them.

MeridianB · 27/01/2020 20:14

Another one stunned that vaping is allowed in any offices. Please don’t be afraid to speak up, OP.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 21:15

Right, last post because the bullshit asymmetry principle applies here.

I like the fact (not) that the vaping ONLY as a vasoconstrictor when its being smoked & gets better afterwards -um that the point with asthma when something irritates your affected lungs they tend to time to recover (I say this as someone who has family members with severe asthma)

Vasoconstriction means your blood vessels. Nothing to do with lungs. You get exactly the same short term vasoconstrictive effect if you drink a cup of coffee - in fact the effect of a cup of coffee is greater according to some findings. Only the vaper themself experiences this vasoconstriction. Bystanders simply do not take in sufficient nicotine to be affected in this way.

Also, obviously you don't 'smoke' a vape. PHE:

policies should make clear the distinction between vaping and smoking

to avoid confusion, do not use smoking terminology when referring to e-cigarettes. E-cigarette use is often known as ‘vaping’ and e-cigarette users are often known as ‘vapers'

There is also an issue about people not buying their vaping capsules or the chargers from reputable sources (ie online or off some suspect market stalls)

Yes, everybody should buy their vaping supplies from reputable sources. Lucky there are lots of these, including online outlets.

as mentioned in several sources if the vape is over heated it changes the chemicals

This is true. What is also true is that burnt vape tastes like absolute shit. The studies you allude to are some of the most dishonest research out there because the conditions were totally unrealistic.

& the whole point of vaping was to help people give up not to maintain the smoking habit long term because it is cheaper & you can bypass smoking rules

Vaping was invented by Hon Lik as a safer alternative to smoking. He was worried about his wife's health. Vapers who have completely switched to vaping and no longer smoke have given up. They are non-smokers and are counted as such by the NHS. Some people also want to be free of their nicotine habit, despite it having minimal health risks on its own. Most people seem to find it easier to quit vaping than smoking.

Some people find that continuing to vape protects them from relapse. I am in this group. Quitting smoking is a piece of piss, I've done it hundreds of times.

It is a lot cheaper once you are set up and it's also just as enjoyable as smoking once you get the hang of it. This is important because it makes it attractive to smokers so has huge potential for saving lives and for harm reduction.

The idea of vapers bypassing smoking rules makes no sense because it isn't smoking. Do you also think that cyclists have found a cunning way of avoiding vehicle tax?

The whole point of vaping is that you are massively less likely to die early from a smoking related illness. Whether you also quit vaping or not.

- it simply isn't fair for people (especially like the op) who have to SUFFER the consequences

Please do have a read of PHE policy guidance. Here is the link again:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/use-of-e-cigarettes-in-public-places-and-workplaces

They're not advocating for vaping to be allowed absolutely everywhere. They are saying that vaping should be treated differently from smoking (because it is) and that policies should be evidence based and take into account the needs of all employees and anybody else who frequents their business. They specifically say:

people with asthma and other respiratory conditions can be sensitive to a range of environmental irritants, which could include e-cigarette vapour. The interests of such individuals should be taken into account when developing policies and adjustments made where necessary

They also specifically warn against just sending vapers out with smokers because this can undermine people's attempts to quit smoking. Also, those who have completely switched and no longer smoke have the same right to not be subjected to second hand smoke as any other non-smoker.

The vast majority of workplaces are not one single room. Almost always there will be scope to come up with a policy that is neither 'everybody can vape big clouds everywhere' nor 'everybody must go outside and stand in the smoking area'. It's perfectly possible to come up with policies that protect all employees' health and which maximise the benefits of vaping while minimising both any potential risks and also annoyance to others.

That's what the PHE guidance is about.

Vaping colleague: problem
LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 21:22

I said that was my last post but mumwon that's actually a good article you posted and I suggest you read it.

The recent tragic deaths in the US were from people vaping bootleg THC (cannabis) products which contained oils. Nothing to do with nicotine vaping as an alternative to, or way to quit smoking.

We have known for a very long time that inhaling oil is very bad for you. We've known that for far longer than vaping has been around.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 21:25

Thelnebriati good to know that vapour falls within the normal range of everyday things which might eventually clog my computer vents. I look forward to my IT department banning dust.

VanGoghsDog · 27/01/2020 21:28

I care about not dying a decade early from a miserable smoking related illness. And I care about not causing actual measurable harm to those around me. Sorry if that pisses you off.

And because you have no control over yourself, we all have to suffer. Great.
Just bloody do it outside, that's all!

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 21:35

No. Read the policy guidance.

VanGoghsDog · 27/01/2020 21:39

Yeah, I did read it.

There is simply no excuse for using them in offices, or pubs or restaurants.

You don't have to stand with the smokers, walk away from them. It's not compulsory to be in the same area as them.

And employees don't have to tell their employer if they are asthmatics, so employers need to take into account that someone might be and remove triggers as far as possible. That's what risk assessments are for.

ClientListQueen · 27/01/2020 21:46

At my last job, if you were vaping you had to stand in the smoking area which we objected to and eventually were allowed to stand outside it
I've quit smoking, I don't want to stand with smokers and I don't want to smell of it
Some pubs and restaurants allow them, some don't. I will always ask, or if other people are vaping then go off that

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2020 23:15

Yeah, I did read it.

If you have read it then you either didn't understand it or you don't agree with it. If you don't agree with it then it would be helpful if you could point to the bits you disgree with and explain why.

Vapers don't need an excuse to vape in offices, pubs or restaurants, they need good reasons why they should not vape in specific circumstances. Very often there are good reasons not to, whether that's to protect the health of a colleague with asthma or just not to annoy the people around them.

Generally a compromise can be found, whether it's 'vape in this room but not in the office' or 'you can vape discreetly in the bar - no big clouds, but please don't vape in the restaurant'

Workplaces, pubs and other venues are also free to ban vaping altogether of course. They are foolish if they think this makes sense on health grounds.

PHE guidance is clear that vaping should be made an easier, more attractive option than smoking, wherever possible. They also say this:

smokers can achieve their desired blood plasma nicotine level with one cigarette every hour or so, and in a short space of time. Vaping provides a generally lower blood nicotine level and takes longer to reach a desired level, requiring frequent interim top-ups. This difference should be taken into account, particularly when developing policies for workplaces.

It's about 6 years since I last smoked a cigarette and these days I can if I need to go 24 hours without a vape without missing it too much. I remember the early days though, and wondering whether I was doing it wrong because I seemed to need to vape far more often than I smoked.

Smokers binge on nicotine, vapers graze. It's a far more little-and-often thing and to expect vapers to keep the same sort of timetable as smokers will be setting up lots of new quitters for failure. Someone who has newly switched to vaping will find it incredibly difficult to take in enough nicotine in a 'fag break' to see them through to the next one without major withdrawal symptoms. And you are also suggesting that vapers should walk past the smokers and go even further away if they don't want to stand with the smokers (smokers will always stop at the nearest place they are allowed). How many will just think 'fuck it, give us a fag'?

And employees don't have to tell their employer if they are asthmatics, so employers need to take into account that someone might be and remove triggers as far as possible. That's what risk assessments are for.

This is fascinating.

What data did you use when comparing the potential risk of triggering asthma attacks from the ingredients in eliquid compared with all the other potential triggers in your workplace? Your post seems to suggest that the risk assessment was based on a hypothetical employee whose asthma could be triggered by any of a vast range of things. How many other things have you banned?

How did your risk assessment take account of the risks to employees who are trying to quit smoking? If they don't manage to quit they stand a 50% chance of premature death. If you are putting obstacles in the way of that you really should do a risk assessment.

VanGoghsDog · 27/01/2020 23:21

Funnily enough, employees don't have to tell their employer if they are trying to quit smoking either.

You can't ban "all other potential triggers", but you can ban vaping. Pretty simple.

I didn't actually take asthma into account, I said earlier the things we took into account. I just added that for information on the thread because employees do not have to disclose illnesses or disabilities.

The whole nature of guidance is that one can take it or leave it. My board decided to ban vaping in the office. I've not heard of any employer facing a legal challenge on this and I've never worked anywhere else it was allowed.