Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should the British army take some control of crime/security in the London area?

128 replies

pettswoodmumof3 · 21/01/2020 14:16

What do you all think? There seems to be a precedent in other countries of military involvement when crime reaches a certain level.
I have always been quite relaxed about crime statistics but it seems so many people are having a bad experience now and are scared and something needs to change. Just heard another horror story of two 16 year old girls being stop and fake searched by a gang in Blackheath village of all places. So many pointless knife deaths. Some Londonders I have spoken to say they think the criminals know they have the upper hand and that the police just don't have the time to show up quickly for offences like car theft. Do we really want to be the murder capital of the world? My kids are early teens and I have to admit I am starting to worry too (and I am definitely not a paranoid person).

OP posts:
ProfessorSlocombe · 22/01/2020 16:18

I'm not sure what 'a more civil arm' of the military would look like

Maybe they'd say "Please", "Thank you" and use the correct personal pronouns ? Hold doors open for people, that sort of thing ?

doadeer · 22/01/2020 16:21

No fund the police and stop cutting their numbers!

Increase funding and pastoral care in schools so they can tackle difficult behaviour.

Address the causes of crime which in the cases you have given is usually poverty.

MrsTerryPratchett · 22/01/2020 16:25

You should carry the card at all times, most people stick it with their phone now days.

And the elderly, homeless, poor people, people with paranoid disorders? Do they stick it on their phones?

ProfessorSlocombe · 22/01/2020 16:26

No fund the police and stop cutting their numbers

I'm sure if it was that easy, someone would have done it by now .....

FloraGreysteel · 22/01/2020 16:29

What?! As a Londoner I would say No!

LakieLady · 22/01/2020 16:33

@Buccanarab, you're spot on, and I completely agree.

And bringing up our children to value kindness and compassion above material things might help, too.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 22/01/2020 16:52

ID cards in the form suggested by the British government were unworkable. I know someone who was on the committee which was set up to discuss the matter, and will always remember his account of oneof its meetings: "The twelve experts one after another told the junior minister who was at the meeting why the idea was not physically or technically possible at that time in regard to that expert's field. She listened politely, and then told us, That isn't the answer we need. I want you to go and get us the answers we want."

How much does each card where you live cost the individual to whom it is issued, wombat1a? Less than £100? More? how much more? are they biometric? One of the better claims made about them here was that they would not cost more than £80 and that the scheme would pay for itself: a palpable lie, since the cost of implementing it was going to be more than £125 per head of population at that time, and that was just an estimate like the cost of the Olympics....

Are you able to check that the information on your card is all of it correct? If it is not correct, are you liable in law for it not being correct even though you had no way to verify it? That both of these things were going to be difficult and expensive for an individual to achieve, and that the individual would be in breach of the law if the data were not correct in all particulars, were just two of the major flaws in the system proposed under the legislation of 2006 (repealed in 2010 and never enforced) -- I knew one or two of the people who would have been entering individuals' data into the database had it gone ahead, and frankly I would not have trusted them to send all their Christmas cards to the right person at the right address: it was well above their pay-grade. OI was told that their work was not going to be put through any sort of verification process, too. Oh, and their pay really was low: how much d'you think a crook would have needed to bung one of them in order to get a valid ID card made out to a fictional person? My guess is twenty-five quid would have been ample.

You do know about the way that people in some US states have been deprived of their vote because their data is entered as J Smith in one place and John Smith in another, or even as J. Smith, don't you?

MojoMoon · 22/01/2020 18:31

Putting the military on the streets also would not be cost-free.

They have other jobs they so - they aren't twiddling their thumbs looking for extra jobs that they have no experience or training to perform.

So you'd have to expand the military to cover this new role and that would cost money.

Why not spend that money on expanding the police force plus social services and front line mental health care which would be a lot more effective?

The gendamerie etc in other countries are not standard issue soldiers - it's a specific role with very similar training to civil police officers just with more scary guns and a military aesthetic. They aren't 18year old squaddies.

The military role in backing up the police is - and should be - very limited to some specific "live" terrorism scenarios involving guns or explosives. But once the situation is secured they should return to barracks and leave the police to deal with investigating the crime.

As someone said upthread - we can have good public services if we are willing to pay for it. But if we consistently vote in parties that cut spending, we should not be surprised that it's means worse public services including the police.

I'm not sure how ID cards would have any impact on teen gang crime. Carrying a knife is already illegal. Adding a crime of not carrying ID doesn't seem likely to suddenly make them change their ways.

Flaxmeadow · 22/01/2020 18:42

London doesn't have the highest serious crime rates in the country.
West Yorkshire consistently has the highest.

Blibbyblobby · 22/01/2020 18:44

FFS

I live in one of those knife crime areas.

It’s no coincidence that this rise in youth crime is coming from the generation that had youth services eviscerated under the pretext of “austerity”.

The youth clubs, youth services, music centres, football teams etc etc etc were all ways of keeping younger boys out of the influence of the gangs and giving them enough self worth to say no.

Dozer · 22/01/2020 18:48

“ I'm sure if it was that easy, someone would have done it by now .....”

If they cared about youth, and/or crime and were willing to increase spending.

Badbilly · 22/01/2020 20:07

You don't need to go back to 1910 ... you can see what having the army on the streets doing the polices job was like in the 70s in Northern Ireland. I recall at least one car of teenagers getting shot (they all died) at a checkpoint.

That may well be true, but in the context of the post I was replying to we were discussing the government sending troops in to suppress strikes, not sending the troops in generally. The previous poster also mention the “Churchillean” nature of this action, as it was indeed he who issued the order to send them in to Tonypandy.

Jeeves93 · 24/01/2020 11:44

This is a quote from Battlestar Galactica, but it is an important one:

“There’s a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.”

Cohle · 24/01/2020 12:27

You want to impose martial law on central London? And you really can't see any issues with that? Hmm

We should address deprivation, gang culture and the causes of crime. Not put squaddies on the street.

SaskiaRembrandt · 24/01/2020 12:31

Do we really want to be the murder capital of the world?

London is a very long way from being the murder capital of the world.

SaskiaRembrandt · 24/01/2020 12:37

And we don't need the army or harsher laws, we need enough police officers to enforce the laws we already have.

ProfessorSlocombe · 24/01/2020 12:40

London is a very long way from being the murder capital of the world.

Well it's always good to have aspirations, I guess.

Blibbyblobby · 24/01/2020 12:48

@Jeeves93 that's a great quote, thank you

mencken · 24/01/2020 13:01

no.

if people stopped buying drugs on the basis that it is a harmless, victimless crime it would bring crime rates down massively. Plenty of 'naice' types on here supporting it.

TheUser420 · 24/01/2020 13:11

if people stopped buying drugs on the basis that it is a harmless, victimless crime it would bring crime rates down massively. Plenty of 'naice' types on here supporting it.

Not all cannabis is bought on the street - quite a bit is home grown and consumed without sale specifically to avoid contact with criminal elements. So no victim there, by your book.

SaskiaRembrandt · 24/01/2020 16:39

if people stopped buying drugs on the basis that it is a harmless, victimless crime it would bring crime rates down massively. Plenty of 'naice' types on here supporting it.

Quite. There was a thread recently with lots of nice, middle class people insisting they didn't see the harm in a few lines of coke at the weekend, completely oblivious to the damage their recreational drug use is causing both here and in other countries.

TheUser420 · 24/01/2020 16:47

There was a thread recently with lots of nice, middle class people insisting they didn't see the harm in a few lines of coke at the weekend, completely oblivious to the damage their recreational drug use is causing both here and in other countries.

There's a thread here where a point has been swerved Grin

SaskiaRembrandt · 24/01/2020 16:52

TheUser420 eh?

TheUser420 · 24/01/2020 17:01

TheUser420 eh?

It's my birthday.

SaskiaRembrandt · 24/01/2020 17:29

It's my birthday.

Happy Birthday!

Swipe left for the next trending thread