Should the British army take some control of crime/security in the London area?

[pettswoodmumof3]

What do you all think? There seems to be a precedent in other countries of military involvement when crime reaches a certain level.
I have always been quite relaxed about crime statistics but it seems so many people are having a bad experience now and are scared and something needs to change. Just heard another horror story of two 16 year old girls being stop and fake searched by a gang in Blackheath village of all places. So many pointless knife deaths. Some Londonders I have spoken to say they think the criminals know they have the upper hand and that the police just don't have the time to show up quickly for offences like car theft. Do we really want to be the murder capital of the world? My kids are early teens and I have to admit I am starting to worry too (and I am definitely not a paranoid person).

One of the few things I can admire Mrs T. for, was her visceral dislike of the idea (let alone sight) of army uniforms on the street. (Obviously she had completely different ideas about Northern Ireland ).

After the Iranian embassy siege, she was quite cross that the police were unable to handle it, and insisted that in future police had the men, equipment, training and support to deal with such incidents.

She said sending the army in is what other countries do. (And that was a very direct dig at the US where it seemed to be a competitive sport at times in the 60s and 70s).

I'd be curious to know what the OP actually sees "the army" doing ? Checkpoints ? Stop and search ? Uniformed patrols ? Floodlights ? Barricades ? Barbed wire ? Or was the OP suggesting the massed bands of the armed forces for a morale boosting party in the park ?

Anyway if you were going to send an army in, you wouldn't send your own. You'd send a foreign one ... maybe the Russians aren't doing much this year ?

Good lord, the hysteria about London is absurd. Millions of us live here and go about our daily lives completely unaffected by crime. Yes, there is a serious problem with gang/drug violence and (mainly) young men getting injured or killed, and more needs to be done about this, but we are not all walking around in fear for our lives. It’s not a fucking war zone.

It all comes down to money. I've worked in this field a long time and lack of prison places is a big factor. Came across a case just last week of a young guy, caught for the third time carrying a knife and what did he get? More community service. It used to be when a man was convicted of DV he had to do a DV programme and have supervision. Now it's just community service. Drug dealing used to mean a custodial sentence, now its community service! (do you see a theme emerging here?). There is no "rehabilitation" any more. There is no real punishment anymore. Why would you bother giving up your life of crime when the punishments are minor and not even enforced properly? That's the issue.

Hell no. The Army have got their own jobs to do. More police are needed, not putting untrained people out.

Ridiculous suggestion. The police are there by our consent. They are civilians and deliberately so. Using the army to do the job of the police would undermine trust in both institutions, and it isn't particularly high to start with what with the ludicrous 'check your thinking' incidents while serious crime goes unpunished.

Also London is not even vaguely close to being the murder capital of the world and in no danger of becoming so in the foreseeable. Such hyperbole helps nothing and no one.

It would make much more sense to put more funding into the justice system. It is utterly ridiculous that it is taking months and years for cases to get to trial whilst courtrooms stand empty.

(Hey, the army isn't exactly funded over-generously either!)

The everyday policing of civilians is not the job of the army, though they are trained to act in the case of actual riots.

But see Operation Temperer; members of all three main branches of the armed forces may sometimes be deployed to assist the police when it is deemed necessary even when there has not been any rioting.

If you really want to do something to reduce crime invest in a) youth services and b) mental health services.

YABU I don't want to live in a place with the army patrolling the roads.

Prevention is better than cure.

A lot of the stabbings are done by the very young. A lot of these kids have nothing to lose. Maybe if the government restored youth service funding and didn't saddle them with £50,000 of debt to get a degree, they would have more hope and less time to hang about in the street.

Police numbers need to be increased.

I agree with the suggestion of more funding for the police. They are conspicuously absent from the scene now and street crime and burglary have exploded in my supposedly nice area - in fact I have had to give up on the NextDoor website because all I saw was report after report of crimes very locally and it was making me paranoid. 2 of my DC have been mugged within half a mile of our house as have two of my immediate neighbours.

My solution is that of many others I'm afraid. I will be moving out of London within the next year.

of course not.
police needs to be staffed properly, as do (mental) health and social services.

I agree with this:

a) fund the police properly,
b) give them the equipment they need.
c) get the courts to give sentences that really deter

And I'll add: properly engage with trying to deter crime in the first place (through education, youth funding, addressing poverty etc) and with cutting recidivism rates.

Otherwise we'd be under military rule, and I'm personally not enthusiastic about that.

And London is many things, but it is millions of miles away from being 'the murder capital of the world'.

I also live in London and think it's ridiculous.

The police need more funding, we don't need the army to take control.

Give soldiers police officers wages

I have had to give up on the NextDoor website because all I saw was report after report of crimes very locally
People are more likely, I'd think, to report bad things like crime than nice innocuous things like 'went to the corner shop today, had a good laugh with the nice bloke.'

Maybe Google "murder capital of the world" to see how 24 access to news and SM has completely twisted our understanding of how bad violent crime is in the UK. And I speak as someone who lives in an area of the that has a relatively high level of knife crime. Hysteria doesn't help anyone.

No, it's not going to get to the root of the problem either, which is the only thing that will truly work other than throwing an infinite amount of money and resources at it and hoping someone is in the right place at the right time.

Part of the problem is these low level crimes aren’t always reported. I see things all over my local Facebook about car/van break ins and people on Ring doorbells checking the house out. But they’re not reported to the police! So how can the police help or try and secure more funding if these things go in-reported?

Possibly the most ridiculous post this month.

Possibly the most ridiculous post this month

Surely not. . .

Possibly the most ridiculous post this month

Well, no. See, for instance, the one that suggested we all take to the streets in outrage if Archie doesn't return to our shores from Canada.

Or we could just fund the police properly, plus other things that we know reduce crime like proper probation and youth services. Honestly, why would we think policing is better done by the army than actual police?

God, no. It smacks of martial law, which is a few steps down the road to a totalitarian state. And it's not their job! Although I don't have a problem with the army getting involved in events like the siege at the Libyan embassy.

Getting the army involved in law and order in Northern Ireland made things a hell of a lot worse.

We need more police officers (proper ones, not PCSOs), adequately resourced and equipped, and we need them out on patrol, not stuck indoors doing paperwork.

We need more resources for youth services, and things that give kids a sense of self-worth that don't involve carrying a knife or selling drugs.

London is not even close to becoming 'the murder capital of the world' and one of the main reasons for that is that we don't have armed police and we don't have easily purchasable guns for civilians. Bringing armed forces onto the streets is only going to escalate things - criminals will also want to be armed. And while knives can indeed be deadly, bullets are by far more dangerous.

Here's a thing that really helped me to understand this: imagine a thief in your home waving a gun at you. You are unarmed. What happens? You let them steal your stuff.

But now imagine you see the thief and reach for your gun. What happens? He shoots, you shoot. People get hurt and maybe die.

Introducing more guns into any situation far more than doubles the chance of people getting shot. Victims and innocent bystanders, as well as criminals. It's a really, really bad idea. As is the idea of having soldiers who aren't trained in civilian law enforcement on the streets. If you really want to live in a military state, feel free to move to one.

Just to point out to people that the following countries in Europe ALL use the military as Police - France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland and probably more I am not aware of.

In France the Gendarmerie are the military branch of the police, the civil police being something completely different, and the Spanish police who wear the funny hats are their version of the Gendarmerie (Gardia civile?) , so it is not unusual in many of our closest neighbours.