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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Advice on inheritance disputes

999 replies

Ilovechinese · 20/01/2020 14:02

Hi I'm just wondering if anyone on here has been to court to contest a will and if so how long did it take to get to court and what the process is. I'm going through this at the minute (well not got to court yet) but have a caveat in place to stop probate.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:31

@VanGoghsDog thank you

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:31

Just found this also

The burden has always been on those upholding the Will to prove that it is valid. The defendant (the person disputing the Will) does not have to prove that it is invalid. This means that those upholding the Will are left waiting for the defendant to withdraw the challenge or for the Will to be declared valid in a Court of Law. During this period, the upholders of the Will can accumulate a large legal bill.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:34

@DeRigueurMortis I do take in board what you are saying and if I am told I have little or no chance I am sure I will have to reluctantly remove the caveat.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:38

This action was not without cost (or risk) to Bernice.

Defendants (like Ruth) can insist that the Will is proven and cross-examine the witnesses but they do not have to make a positive case as to why the Will is invalid. A costs order cannot be made against them, unless the Court considers there were no reasonable grounds for opposing the Will.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:39

So I will be able to insist they are cross examined In court in front of a judge. He already stuttered when just talking to me and trying to justify it.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:48

So, a defendant can demand that a Will is proven – at great expense and lost time to the upholder of the Will. Providing the defendant has reasonable grounds to do this, they do not have to pay the upholder’s costs even if the Will is proven valid.

This may seem somewhat one-sided, as a defendant can delay a Grant of Probate for years with reasonable grounds, and escape paying the legal costs of the upholder.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:53

elselaw.co.uk/important-update-upholding-disputing-will/

This says the person upholding the will has to pay the costs unless the person holding it up has enough evidence that it is valid and doesn't drop it. So I am okay to go ahead until I have more evidence and then will drop it if I am advised by my solicitor.

OP posts:
PineappleDanish · 25/01/2020 18:54

Why are you still posting? You've disregarded ALL the information from people who know what they're talking about, and are googling randomly for "evidence" to back your case.

Quite clear you're hell bent on proving some sort of point or getting revenge on your brother.

I'm out.

WobblyAllOver · 25/01/2020 18:54

OP all you are doing is searching for anything that confirms your belief. Anything that doesn't you discount and ignore.

I find that strange because I try and find anything that disputes my belief to ensure that I am not mistaken and that my belief will hold up to careful scrutiny and arguments. Be careful not to be your own cheerleader.

Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 18:58

I am posting because I have free will to do so.

OP posts:
Barbarella1 · 25/01/2020 19:04

If there’s no reasonable grounds to challenge the Will, you will have to pay all costs. You cannot just sit sit back and say it isn’t fair. It isn’t that simple. You can’t just google cases and the law and say gotcha. The other side only need to throw it back to you and say prove it. Do really think you can just say the Will is wrong init and that’s the end of it and you won’t have to pay costs. You will just look vindictive and could end badly for you?

You don’t understand the law you certainly don’t understand caveats.

sweeneytoddsrazor · 25/01/2020 19:09

OP it is very clear you are absolutely hell bent on fighting this case at whatever the cost. Any sympathy you had originally has bow more or less been extinguished by the way you are talking and picking what you would like to hear whilst ignoring any sensible advice that you dont want to hear. The same way that sympathy is rapidly drying up on here will be reflected in real life very quickly as well. I predict you wil end up very much out of pocket, with all your family relationships fragmented or irretrievably damaged, whilst your brother will not be out of pocket and may even be abke to keep some of the family relationships going.

Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 19:09

@barbarella1 if you read the link I just posted (which is a uk one) it says you only have to pay costs once you are advised the will is valid and you still carry it on and go to court. I haven't yet been told that or has my solicitor reviewed all the evidence. So as I have said if I an told it is valid I will withdraw but so far I have not been told that. Not by my solicitor.

OP posts:
Barbarella1 · 25/01/2020 19:14

OP I’m an ex lawyer with many years experience. But you crack on.

Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 19:14

@sweeneytoddsrazor well that is where you are wrong. You maybe right in that he may win the case but regardless if he wins or loses my family have all said they will never speak to him again after this and are utterly disgusted with him for it. See in a way even if I do lose I will still win as I will still have the love of my family and my children whilst he will have no one (he doesn't have children either) so even if he wins the money he will have no family and whilst my mum was surrounded by her family and children on her deathbed he will die a lonely death I suspect with no family around him and doubt his equally vile gf will still be with him but either way that is all he will have.

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 19:17

Lawyer? So are you American?

OP posts:
Ilovechinese · 25/01/2020 19:19

Either way @Barbarella1 even if that is true you are not my solicitor and have not seen all my evidence and I'm sure you would know as a lawyer you cant judge a case over the internet without seeing all the evidence including will and medical notes etc

OP posts:
florascotia2 · 25/01/2020 19:27

OP Yet again the case you cite does not mean precisely what you think it does. It's more nuanced than that. And the person contesting the will (ie, like you) ended up having to pay two sets of costs totalling £65,000.

Have another read of it here:
www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-media/general/elliott-v-simmonds-2016-some-costs-comfort-for-charities-and-other-beneficiaries

And also, please, please, please talk to your solicitor or to the suggested barrister on Monday, to get a realistic opinion re your prospects and your current and future financial position. How much do you owe so far?

cabbageking · 25/01/2020 19:31

Your brother does not need to prove anything.

The onus is on you to prove the will is not valid.
If your present yourself or employ someone they will ask any questions and present evidence.

You need to show the solicitor did not conduct due diligence.
Your complaint is basically the solicitor didn't do their job and hence the will is invalid.

It has really nothing to do with your brother.

DeRigueurMortis · 25/01/2020 19:39

It's very clear that despite every effort to help you OP you are absolutely determined to ignore any advice given to you in good faith unless you perceive it validates your assertions (even when it doesn't).

You won't "win" even if you lose. You'll spend (have possibly already spent your if he sues for costs wrt lifting the caveat) money that by your own admission you don't have, possibly ending in bankruptcy.

Your brother clearly doesn't give a monkey's about family or he would have behaved differently, so the idea that he's going to be sad/lonely being cut off from the rest of the family is a fallacy. He'll be just dandy.

You are ignoring reality and clearly have no realistic understanding of the fragility of your position.

I have always been bemused, when reading in the press stories of people who've entered into litigation over wills/boundary disputes and are then pictured with a sad face because having lost they face losing their home/being declared bankruptcy as to how they possibly put themselves in that position.

Your attitude has made it patently clear exactly how people end up in such a mess and having started feeling utmost sympathy towards you I now reserve that solely for your children who you'll drag down with you.

Barbarella1 · 25/01/2020 19:47

For some reason I’ve posted 3 times but the posts aren’t appearing . I apologise if I’m repeating my self.

No OP I’m not American, UK qualified and only worked fir major city law firms.

beverlymarsh · 25/01/2020 19:53

I wouldn’t bother @Barbarella1. I’m a lawyer too, who used to deal with contentious probate, and the OP hasn’t bothered to acknowledge any of the advice in my previous posts, and it seems the only thing she’s picked up on in yours is your use of the word “lawyer”. FYI OP, one does not have to be American (by which I presume you mean from the US) to be a lawyer.

Dontdisturbmenow · 25/01/2020 20:01

See in a way even if I do lose I will still win as I will still have the love of my family and my children whilst he will have no one (he doesn't have children either) so even if he wins the money he will have no family and whilst my mum was surrounded by her family and children on her deathbed he will die a lonely death I suspect with no family around him and doubt his equally vile gf will still be with him but either way that is all he will have

Oh the depth of the bitterness! Yet, the above is exactly right at least in terms of the outcome for you. So do indeed look at the positive and having your family by your side. Your brother might die lonely or not, it doesn't matter, what does is you having your family.

Lailaha · 25/01/2020 20:17

Let us know how you get on, OP - and maybe contact the poster of the thread you linked and ask where she's up to and how much it's cost so far, to give you more of an idea? Hers is totally different to yours, and she seems to have had some evidence as well, but you might get a ballpark figure to work from, as long as you double it to include your brother's likely costs.

As you said above, none of us have seen your evidence, or even know what that evidence is. Bear in mind, if the judge gets as frustrated with you - your brother won't necessarily be cross-examined, even though you want him to be, and a stutter is proof of nothing (no matter how much you want it to be) - it really will not go at all well for you.

You have not answered whether your family, who are egging you on in this, are contributing to your costs, despite being asked several times, so clearly they aren't. I don't know whether they are just a bit dim, or whether they are loving the drama by fuelling the rift between you and your brother, but they don't have your best interests at heart bases on what you have written here.

Be very careful OP - none of us know you, but no one with half a brain wants to see "a skint single mother" bankrupt herself and permanently damage her children's future, especially not to fulfil family members' cravings for gossip and drama, fuelled on fantasies and wishful thinking. Your best possible outcome can come from mediation, if your brother agrees.

Your insistence that black is white in the things that you are cutting and pasting is actually quite worrying, even though you don't have legal training - it's really a matter of basic comprehension skills. It would probably be a good idea to take a trusted friend with you to the solicitor, so you don't end up like the person pp mentioned, who ended up years do the line and well out of pocket. That solicitor had put in writing her reservations, but the litigant had wilfully ignored /failed to comprehend, and though the only possible recourse she had would have been to go after the solicitor, even that door was closed.

Be careful, OP - no one here wants you to end up a sad face story/in contempt of court/bankrupt. We don't know you, we pity you being in your situation, and we have literally nothing to gain by warning you to look after your children and yourself above all else. If I thought my mother had placed us in a vulnerable position that we didn't need to be, to satisfy her anger, however justifiable that anger was, in would judge her very harshly for endangering us.

Schuyler · 25/01/2020 20:23

” See in a way even if I do lose I will still win as I will still have the love of my family and my children whilst he will have no one (he doesn't have children either) so even if he wins the money he will have no family and whilst my mum was surrounded by her family and children on her deathbed he will die a lonely death I suspect with no family around him and doubt his equally vile gf will still be with him but either way that is all he will have”

Yet, despite the love of your family, nobody has come forward and offered to help you pay? I’m glad you have the love of your family but that’s not going to a huge consolation if you bankrupt yourself and end up even more bitter?

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